Now closing this thread. Please direct all non-political comments about Hurricane Katrina here. –ST

Jim -

- In another post you went off on a braggathon citing several government “programs” to try to point to Liberal/Democrat successes. In fact all of the areas you listed are in one way or another, basically “bandaids”. neccessary in many cases, to shore up a disasterous economy, under the mis-guidence of those same Democratic leaderships. To wit:

“You mention being a fan of ‘classical liberalism’. I’m not familiar
with that term, but i would infer that you’re talking about the ideology
that led to formation of public school system, social security, FDA,
USDA, TVA, OSHA, EPA, etc… all of which sprang from liberal minds as a
means for protecting american citizenry in its entirety.”

The list of shame:

- Public schools – In such bad shape, record numbers of parents all across the country are opting for private schools. Mismanaged, and more about teachers rights and self serving Unions than educating our children. Unacceptably costly, outdated ineffectual teaching standards, and out of control discipline and poor leadership.

- Social Security: Only a Liberal would be against greater “ownership” of the money a person earns by the sweat of his/her brow. Much better to redistribute it among others. Thats a great nessage to send to people. Hey don’t worry about working hard or trying to contribute to things. Just sit back and let Big brother take care of you. Aside from that ludicrious idea, everyone knows the liberals froth at the mouth at any atempt to rescue the bankrupted future of SS because its the main porkbarrel they fund all their givaway programs from and they panic at the idea it will be scotched for a better, truly fair system.

FDA/USDA/OSHA/EPA – All ineffectual government boondoggles that are forever “protecting” people and environments after all the trees are burned down, the medicines have killed a bunch of people, and the food is contaminated. Mostly lap dogs of the industrial hands that feed them.

- Government make work programs like TVA – After the last shovel of dirt goes in the people go home to the same problems they started with. The high unemployment, weak economy, and deep recession that only was fixed by the WWII industrial explosion. All under Democratic/Liberal admins.

No…. the real truth is even in the case of the civil rights movement where the southern Liberal/Democrat caucus did everything it could to block things, it was the Conservative leadership in congress that forced through the neccessary legislation, while the Dems went on vacation.

- Our political history is a series of the same governmental processes. The Liberals propose utopian, unworkable, impractical ideas, never actually legislate anything worthwhile, and when it gets bad enough the conservatives finally act to pare those ideas down to reality and pass legislation.

- Thats just one of the many reasons the Liberals are in the political wilderness right now, and so out of touch with mainstream America. If they don’t stop wasting eveyones time with their immature, misguided attacks on ChimpyMcBush and start forming a true set of ideas, a viable plan instead of polysci 101 rhetoric, they have generations of the same thing to look forward too.

If this is moral?

Is religion really a good thing to bring out in public?

Or is it best to keep our faiths in private, in church, in our homes, at our supper tables and in our hearts?

Is it best to teach our children this hatred?

Or is it best to teach children about love and compassion?

Do these people represent you?

Do you advocate hate and violence toward others who have done you no wrong?

Please post link to article and not the entire article itself and we’ll discuss it. Thanks. –ST

If the american-hating right follows its script, we should already have had death threats by now. We’ve had attacks on her camp, such as shots fired and a truck running over a memorial. Sheehan’s emotive force is something the right is used to yielding, and the right doesn’t know how to react. Thats why we see all their hate and hissy-fitting.

Thank for the opportunity to clarify.

Coming fom a military family myself. I am saying that unless you or your family have actually made the ultimate sacrifice and have lost a loved one in service to your country then your perspective is different than that of families who have been fortunate not have such a terrible loss. It’s just not honorable for a soldiers family to dishonor another soldiers family. That’s not the way I was brought up. If Mrs. Sheehan and other mothers who lost their children are angry with the President for the loss of her son, well than I feel for her although I strongly disagree with her path of expression. My brother died in Iraq in Desert Storm. My other brother is doing his twenty in the Air Force.

I am a devout Christian. But I acknowledge that religious extremism is the greatest threat to all of our national security. Islamic fundamentalist are just as dangerous as Christian fundamentalist. Religeous extremist are trying to infiltrate governments all over the world. And historically colusion between any religion and government only brings about tyranny and oppression. It stifles liberty, democracy and justice.

Just look back on the history of modern religion. Whenever it intersected or collaborated with governments, those countries have only known great suffering. And in those countries today where religion interacts with public policy you have tremendous inequality and hatred like in Iran or Saudi Arabia. I fear that we are letting far too much religion into our own government. And if history has taught us anything we should all know that it will be the end of freedom, liberty and justice.

–How has invading Iraq made us safer? I still don’t see how. Terrorism is a world-wide problem. There are terrorist cells harbored in many countries. Do we invade them all?

–When citizens of a country attempt to repel an occupying force, they are seen as “freedom fighters” in their own country and “insurgents” by the occupying country. Call them what you wish, but their goal is the same. They want us out of there.

–We may disagree on the method, but don’t you want our troops to come home and be with their families? I’m not advocating “cut and run” either, but Bush has been woefully unprepared for this war and doesn’t have a clear exit strategy. This war may go on for years. I want to know how he plans to end this war. Bush has flip-flopped on this issue, as seen in the following quotes:

George W. Bush, 4/9/99: “Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is.”

George W. Bush, 6/5/99 “I think it’s also important for the president to lay out a timetable as to how long they will be involved and when they will be withdrawn.”

VERSUS
George W. Bush, 6/24/05: “It doesn’t make any sense to have a timetable. You know, if you give a timetable, you’re — you’re conceding too much to the enemy.”

He can’t have it both ways.

SCB: “What about the London bombings and Madrid bombings? Isn’t the UK part of our “coalition of the willing”, or don’t they count?”

Yes, they count. I blogged about that here when the London bombings happened last month.

“When our allies are attacked, we are all attacked. I consider us to be in much greater danger now than before the invasion of Iraq.”

That’s fine, but that’s an opinion, not necessarily a fact, same as mine. There have been any number of countries attacked that had *nothing* to do with the war in Iraq. WE were attacked before we went into Iraq (and before anyone tries to say otherwise, I’m not asserting Iraq was behind 9-11). We were attacked (in other countries) in the 90’s under Clinton’s admin, and we were attacked (in other countries) under Reagan as well so the danger we’ve been in existed well before Iraq and wouldn’t have gone away whether we went in or not.

“Their voices are stronger because the message is getting out to more people, whether you agree with it or not. I’m not ashamed of the people who agree with Cindy Sheehan.”

I’m not ashamed of *everyone* who agrees with her, but I am with a lot of them. It just defies comprehension that so many can support her when she’s come to be the symbol (IMO) of everything wrong with today’s left in general. She’s hostile, hateful, intolerant, and seems to not like Jews, etc. Her “message” may be getting out, but the message is wrong. Her message is that we should cut and run, and if that message takes hold in the Democratic party and prominent leaders in the DNC start advocating it, it’s going to make the party look more pacifist then the McGovern wing. Just remember, that “movements” like the one underway in Crawford with Cindy Sheehan and company don’t just galvanize frustrated Democrats. They also galvanize Republicans – strongly, in the opposite direction.

“To my knowledge, Cindy Sheehan has not called our soldiers “killers”. And think about the “freedom fighter” issue from this perspective: If the US were invaded and occupied by a large Islamic country that tried to establish a religious theocracy here with a muslim cleric as our president, we’d have armed American insurgents all over the place.”

I’m not dignifying that with a response except to say that, with all due respect, I think it’s a bit on the incredibly wrong to refer to the people killing our troops as “freedom fighters.” In essence that’s what Cindy has called the people who killed her son: “freedom fighters.” I couldn’t claim to support the troops and call their killers “freedom fighters.”

Bang: I see the media is hyping this up big time this weekend. I saw the article you references, as well. Nice to know Howard Dean’s group is involved in this as well

Lets just make sure that we are comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges.

Otherwise it’s just crazy talk.

[sic]..There is also the “Cindy you don’t speak for me tour,” a caravan of military wives and mothers led by Deborah Johns of Roseville. Her son William is a marine who has served two tours of duty in Iraq.

Johns and her supporters are traveling to Crawford to confront Cindy Sheehan.

“Sheehan said today she’ll welcome to meet with her without reporters present.”

What about the London bombings and Madrid bombings? Isn’t the UK part of our “coalition of the willing”, or don’t they count? When our allies are attacked, we are all attacked. I consider us to be in much greater danger now than before the invasion of Iraq.

“Second, I disagree that together, their voices are stronger when together, when you consider the “voices.”"

Their voices are stronger because the message is getting out to more people, whether you agree with it or not. I’m not ashamed of the people who agree with Cindy Sheehan.

“It’s not showing respect for the freedom those soldiers in the past died for when the current group of soldiers are being called “killers” and their enemies in Iraq are being called “freedom fighters” by Cindy Sheehan and Michael Moore. So no, that is not showing respect at all.”

To my knowledge, Cindy Sheehan has not called our soldiers “killers”. And think about the “freedom fighter” issue from this perspective: If the US were invaded and occupied by a large Islamic country that tried to establish a religious theocracy here with a muslim cleric as our president, we’d have armed American insurgents all over the place. Our mistake is trying to impose a western-style democracy on another culture.

We have terrorist everywhere. Yet we don’t fight them everywhere. We fight them in countries that have a potential financial interest to the President and his financial supportors.

We went to Afghanistan to get Osama, but we never got him. We said that we would bring the Afghani people democracy and equality. But we never did. Instead we bought 900 tons of heroin from Afghani farmers. Which we then claimed to destroyed, yet we have released no photos or video of this action. Heroin just so happens to be flooding the streets of our major cities on a scale not seen since the 1970’s.

We went to Iraq not for WMD, and not to bring the Iraqis freedom and equality. But to establish a battleground in which to draw out regional terrorist and fight them in a controlled environment. This was not nearly as effective as we hoped. We went in with less than half the troops we needed and inexperienced no-bid contractors. We are actually generating much more anti-American sentiment than we had before, and thus creating more terrorist. This is not bad thing because the American oil companies are getting supercheap oil from Iraq and selling it back to us American citizens at triple the price it was before President Bush took office. Meanwhile everyday Iraqis still dont have water, food, electricity, medical care or gas with any regularity after two and a half years of American liberation and occupation. And it looks as if Iraq will be another Islamic republic that will govern it’s citizens under the guidelines of Sharia law. Women in the new free Iraq for which our beloved soldiers have died and bled for will not have democracy or equal rights. Our own government spends more getting oil out of Iraq than it spends on every social reconstruction program in Iraq combined. This is not opinion, it’s fact.

Supporting the troops is an act which is indeed entirely seperate of supporting the Presidents agenda. Since his administration has had a consistant record of slashing medical and death benefits to military personell and their families. He has raided Social Security to pay no-bid contracts for services that often times we don’t need private contractors for.

We have an army in Iraq.
So why does our government employ 20,000 mercenaries for security?
Why do we need American private contractors to provide goods and services at prices that are at least triple what our troops can provide the same services for themselves?

The real terrorism in the world is religious extremism. The middle east is loaded with extremist. Greater Israel is too. And last but not least we have our own wrath of religious radicals and fundamentalist right here in the United States. They publically advocate violence toward democracy. Ann Coulter once said the she wished Timothy McViegh had bombed New York instead of Oklahoma. Pat Robertson urged the assination of a democratically elected foreign leader. And a Christian group in Texas was found with several very large cyanide bombs and an incredible amount of guns and explosives in addition to a half million rounds of ammunition.

If folks want to support the troops then send money to the families of the enlisted men and women, give your frequent flyer miles to Fisher House, donate to the USO. And last but not least demand the truth from your elected officials. Only the truth will support our troops.