Dershowitz (sp) a liberal after 9/11 wrote articles on this subject. I’m sorry your propensity is to call names and act like someone is for torture on a normal everyday basis when that isn’t true. But that’s just it. It isn’t true.

And you and people out there like Molly Ivans writing head lines like “Bush is for torture” are just shallow and full of hate and CLOSE MINDED.

There is no debate with you.

It’s you attack.

We defend.

Over and over.

Nice pattern.

You can either get over yourself and talk to us like we conservatives are human beings or keep on acting like we are evil and/or not-caring and the debate continues like this.

Because for you to win the debate I guess is for us to say, “oh. you are right. I’m not caring”

I think the discussion is healthy. Lemmings we are not. Look what Chertoff has announced regarding illegal immigration. Do you think that was just a coincidence? Bush is feeling the heat from his right, and he is doing something about it. It’s all good!

Chief

Belief 1. “The President made it very clear that we do not torture and we do not condone torture” (Scott McClellan)

Belief 2. The McCain no-torture amendment must be defeated or the president will veto the bill to which it is attached; i.e. the US must maintain the prerogative to subject detainees to cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment.

“….A person in a state of cognitive dissonance will then seek consonance. There are various ways to achieve this. However, changing a cognition gives some discomfort: one has to reflect and admit to oneself that one has had a wrong cognition….”

Festinger, Leon. (1957). A Theory of Cognitive Dissonance. Stanford, CA: Stanford University Press

Now we’re quoting Scott McClellan for a reliable source??!

But still you don’t simply say whether you agree with McCain or Bush on the no-torture amendment. It really is a simple question, no?

How can intellecual conservatives take it when the Bible thumpers force their children to learn “intelligent design”?

You don’t know me well enough to call me that.

Yes. Because Bush and we are FOR torture. /end sarcasm Keep on believing that and you lose the debate of ideas for solutions.

There is a disconnect between your allegations (continued pattern-isn’t your torturous accusatory behavior nice?) and reality. Read the following trascript between Scctt McClellan and the harassing reporters:

Q The papers have been satiated in the last few days, again with another round of our abuse of prisoners and detainees and torture. Has the President ever issued a directive to all military prisons under our control that they should not torture and they should abide by the Geneva Accord?

MR. McCLELLAN: Yes. Yes. In fact, we did that quite some time ago.

Q There is an actual directive?

MR. McCLELLAN: If people are involved in wrongdoing, they’re going to be held to account. And that’s exactly what — that’s exactly what this administration has done.

Q I asked you if the President has issued any executive order against torture.

MR. McCLELLAN: The President made it very clear that we do not torture and we do not condone torture. And if people –

Q But we do.

MR. McCLELLAN: — and if people break the law, they are brought to account. And that’s exactly what we’ve done in the instances that you’re referring to.

Q Why don’t they know it, then? I mean, why has there been this continued abuse?

MR. McCLELLAN: They do know it. And the Secretary of Defense and military leaders have taken steps to prevent such horrible atrocities from happening again.

Q But not if it goes beyond sergeant. Why is that?

MR. McCLELLAN: You might want to talk to the Department of Defense, because they can brief you –

Q No, I think this is something at the presidential level.

MR. McCLELLAN: No, but I think it’s important –

Q It has to do something with our reputation.

MR. McCLELLAN: I think it’s important for the American people to know the facts. And if you look at the facts, people have been brought to justice that are involved in wrongdoing. And any allegation of wrongdoing is taken very seriously by this administration. We have an outstanding military; 99.9 percent of the men and women in uniform do an outstanding job and represent the American people in the best possible way. They uphold our standards and our values.

Q Do you have any papers showing the President has issued a directive against torture?

MR. McCLELLAN: We’ve actually put out paper previously about the directives that he’s made –

Q An actual order?

MR. McCLELLAN: — and he has publicly stated it very clearly to everyone in his administration and to the American people.
————
And do you know what Dennis your attitude continues to be condescending. Instead of legitimate debate it is attack after attack. You are a torturer. I don’t mean that lightly. How do you respond to your behavior?

The GOP spent tens of millions in taxpayer money to investigate Bill Clinton and ultimately found nothing more worthwhile to prosecute than lies over a private sexual encounter – a matter of zero relevance to national security or public policy. The present high-profile investigations of GOP figures do involve matters of considerable relevance to national security and public policy, most notably the matter of how we were led into a war that inevitably will change the geopolitical balance in the world. And according to the consensus of most analysts outside the Bush administration, the changes already have significantly degraded American security and interests.

Chickens coming home to roost. Tragically, too late to prevent catastrophic damage and loss of life. There will be much more.

And still not a peep about the anti-torture amendment.

There are sound reasons to reference that era of our history. In 1954 (under Eisenhower) the US engineered a coup to topple a democratically elected leader in Iran. Cold war arguments were used for some time to justify this, but the real reason was that Mossadegh wanted to nationalize Iran’s oil industry. We put in his place a manipulable tyrant, the Shah, whose picture beamed down from every wall when I was in Tehran in 1972. Nobody could say a word against him without being thrown in prison, tortured by his Savak police and possibly killed.

Remember this well: we ourselves uprooted the best promise of an authentic democratic Middle East, and in its stead planted the very seeds of the Islamic revolution we are contending with now. 9/11 didn’t happen because “they hate our freedom” or because of any failure of Clinton. It happened because radical Muslims resent our long record of interference for self-interested reasons.

As George Santayana once famously said, “Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”

As for the GOP getting “back to battling the Dems,” ST, why aren’t Republicans and Democrats getting together as Americans and setting an example to the world of benevolence and respect for human dignity? Or is waging war, dehumanizing others and fighting among ourselves just too much fun for our sports-besotted culture? Maybe I haven’t looked in enough posts here, but I have yet to see you (or your GOP correspondents) take a clear, unequivocal position on the anti-torture amendment and Mr. Bush’s threat to veto it. You sidestepped Dug’s mention of the issue, but I think it’s fair to let your readers know plainly where you stand on this. With McCain or Bush?

As for the Dems finding candidates to beat Republican leaders, 06 is still ahead. Part of the problem up to now may be that the Dems have nobody with the taste for blood to match Tom DeLay’s, but I’m not sure that’s a character flaw. It’s ultimately up to the public to exercise sound collective judgment; my fear is that too many are enamored with shock and awe (belligerency) to make wise decisions any more.

PCD, talk about ethics in the present tense. It does no good to divert attention to past bad actors – we need accountability for what is going on in the here and now.

Craig and Dug, one big lesson I’ve learned from posting on right wing blogs is the wisdom of Jesus’ words in Matthew 7:6. We walk a very fine line here.

They both want big government. One to help those with power, and one to help those that don’t.

That’s why you have some who think that your hard-earned dollars should be taxed, but money just given to you (Estate taxes) shouldn’t be.