in the wrong era. Soundly refuting
liberals online since 2000. NOTE: That is NOT
me pictured at left. :)
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Audacity of Truth
"Diplomacy":
"People are saying what in the world is going on with North Carolina, we look like Mississippi." - NC Gov. Bev Perdue (D) on the passage of Amendment One, 5-11-12
The undermining of this war
Maybe it’s because I’m feeling a bit on edge tonight, but I’m sitting here thinking about how much undermining of the war has gone on by the bogus accusations of ‘lies’ by Democrats in Congress and it makes me sick. I just cannot get over how so many of them are working to turn this into Vietnam in terms of the war being fought on two fronts – both abroad and in the press. Anti-war sentiment and negative press DID have an effect on the Vietnam war in terms of support … and the same crap is happening all over again.
It fascinates the he** out of me that so many Dems in Washington can say “we’re doing our patriotic duty by expressing dissent” … hogwash. As if dissenting is the only way to be patriotic. It also amazes me that they like to claim that their ‘dissent’ doesn’t hurt troop morale and embolden the enemy – yet another lesson they DID NOT LEARN from Vietnam. I mean, think about it: for example, let’s say the president of the company you work for has assigned a team of employees for a specific long term project. Several of the board members begrudgingly go along with the plan while privately expressing reservations as to if it is even necessary to each other. Over the course of time, when the long term project isn’t going so well, they start to repeatedly say “it can’t be done” or “we need to scrap this project and have these employees get back to their normal responsibilities.” After a while, those negative comments are going to have effect on morale and the people involved in the project are going to get uptight and edgy – and probably mad, too. It’s human nature. I have no doubt that it’s the same for many of our men and women fighting – they see people here fighting at home over the very reasons they were sent to Iraq in the first place, Democrats lying in speeches on the House and Senate floor about being ‘lied to’ and eventually it can and will affect morale.
When we win this war – and we will – it will be in spite of the incessant whining coming from the mouths of the Democratic liars in Congress and their cohorts in the MSM.
RSS feed for comments on this post.
Oh, the Democrats and their leftist fellow travelers learned the lessons of Vietnam quite well actually. What makes you think that undermining our efforts and snatching defeat from the jaws of victory isn’t their goal? I think it’s extremely naive to assume that defeat and disgrace are not their goals, they are. All in order to attempt to return to power, discredit their political foes, and also because philosophically, they want a weak America.
Whenever these idiots go on about how dissent is “patriotic” I wonder what they thought of the people who came out to protest desegregation. Were the people who protested, and threw rocks and bottles at the National Guard and black students trying to attend school just doing their “patriotic” duty to dissent?
Whether they admit it or not, not all dissent is patriotic or right. Some things are obviously right, there is a right and wrong, no matter how much moral and cultural relativism they preach. Their dissent on these issues is self serving, anti-American, has caused more deaths of US servicemen and women (and Iraqis), and designed to weaken the country.
And yes, I’ll say it, I am attacking their “patriotism.” If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it’s likely it’s a duck.
Those who sow into the wind, will reap the whirlwind. I cannot wait for the back lash that will come to the democratic party for their treasonous actions now. We are going to win, and the Iraqi people are going to be FREE!!! – Lorica
I guess your mood isn’t helped by more comments from Murtha!:mad:
Indeed Pam!
Didn’t Hillary, during the Clinton years, talk about how you shouldn’t question the president in times of war? I think this was during a lot of the wag the dog speculation about the bombings…does anyone know? Guess I have some research to do.
Dissent is as patriotic as washing your car. Neither are necessarily bad things, but neither are patriotic.
And public dissent during wartime, though not remotely illegal, is completely unpatriotic. By demoralizing your troops and encouraging the enemy, you are lengthening the fight, and causing more casualties. It takes an incredibly self-centered person to believe that going out and protesting is more important than soldier’s lives.
I originally supported the war. I regret that now, if only because I believe that they’ve completely screwed it up. By they I don’t mean the guys who are out there having to deal with it, I mean the higher ups. The planners. And I think that corruption, to some degree, has been rampant.
But That’s hardly me wanting the enemy to win, or not wanting a free iraq. But I’m afraid that the chances for a free and stable iraq has become slimmer and slimmer. And that’s terrible. Especially since we completely could have succeeded.
The reason vietnam keeps cropping up is not just because of ‘the left’…you find lots and lots and lots of references to it by both sides. (look at the election!) And there’s a very simple reason for that. Look at who is ‘in charge’ now. The Baby Boomers. And Vietnam looms very large in their mental landscape, and as basically every human being does, this shapes how they cast things.
The left is comfortable with the left winning but the right must never win. The past wars that the left supported were wars for left wing causes but not necessarily for democracy.
The Democrat and the media have no morals, no integrity, no ethics, no spine, and they wish to impose that same lack of character upon the rest of the country.
>I’m afraid that the chances for a free
>and stable iraq has become slimmer and
>slimmer.
Stop listening to the MSM and listen to our troops on the ground and the Iraqis themselves. You might get a different picture.
Rachel I agree with Cavalier. Stop listening to the MSM and those that want to lend credibility to what the MSM is saying. Want to believe again listen to the soldiers stories. Many of them are coming back saying how victory is so imminent. Like I said on another post, I work for the DoD, and my lead accountant has been there for over a year. She is back for the holidays, but goes back for another year, which she volunteered to do as a civilian. She was talking to me about how happy the Iraqis are that we are there. How much they are looking forward to the next election, and freedom. How much the Iraqis don’t want us to pull out before the mission is finished. I have worked with this woman for over 5 years, she is in her 50s, and went to Iraq to help with our mission for the DoD. She is done with what she went there for originally, now the Army has asked her to take on a new mission. She says how she is guarded by Iraqi military, and says that you can see how much they appreciate us being there. Here is a couple of websites for you, and anyone else that doesn’t believe me. I know that these are biased, but it is hard to find someone that isn’t. It is time to believe that this mission, the freedom of the Iraqi people is almost done, and it is going to work out just the way we hoped for.
http://www.defendamerica.mil
What, really are we doing in Iraq? If you leave the US “psy-ops” out of it, and just look at actual fact, things get curiouser and curiouser…like this:
Prime Minister Nechirvan Barzani explains, “there is no way Kurdistan would accept that the central government will control our resources.”
Turns out that the Kurds are gunning full steam for independence- US policy be damned. To prove their mettle, they have signed an oil drilling deal with a Norwegian company, telling the Baghdad government to fu** off.
To me, it seems very likely that within 5 years there will be an independant Kurdistan, that is not very sympathetic to US concerns:
In his speech Tuesday, Barzani, the nephew of Kurdish politician and former guerrilla leader Massoud Barzani, eschewed the language of the law and couched the deal in political terms. He invoked the Kurds’ years of deprivation at the hands of the Sunni Arab-dominated government of Saddam Hussein.
“The time has come that instead of suffering, the people of Kurdistan will benefit from the fortunes and resources of their country” he said during the ceremony in the western portion of Kurdish-controlled territory.
This kind of situation is exactly what has people like me up in arms about the Iraq boondoggle. Pure incompetence. Paul Bremer should be Rummy’s bitch in a cell in southern Illinois, right next to Manuel Noriega.
The problem with “Kurdistan” has been known from the get-go, and should have been officially considered from the start. I think that maybe they should be allowed to form their own state, which would make Iraq a basically Shia-controlled Islamic state.
Again, not the original game-plan…oh, wait! There was no game plan, so it’s all OK.
Most people here who support the war did so initially because they felt that it was vital to US security. A shrinking number of those people still feel that way – yourself included.
Then people went along with the war because they thought that we were building a US style democracy, with American values to the middleeast. Many of us- myself included- saw that as impossible hogwash. Even our closest ally, and the closest thing to a democratic government in the ME- Israel- is a theocratic state.
In the end, there will be a free Kurdistan and a Shiite Iraq. Like the Tibetans, the Sunnis will move to Michigan or be killed.
Zorro,
What galls me about you Liberals is that you all want things perfect if you don’t run things, and when you do run things, you’ll let the Saddams kill people as they will just so you don’t lose power.
You have no plan except cut, run, stick your head in the sand.
PCD,
what galls me about people like you is that you engage mouth before engaging brain. Your statement as a rebuttal of my comments make absolutely no sense.
Zorro,
It makes sense. It is an observation of you and your fellow travellers.
It must hurt since you resort to a personal attack as your rebuttal.
Notice that Zorro had to get the usual leftist dig in against Israel, in a post that had nothing to do with Israel.
So far, you’re following the typical Leftist script pretty well.
Zorro, his statement makes very good sense. He is saying that you are complaining about such a small thing as who exactly will control the future of Kurdish Iraq, but were mute, or at least unwilling to remove him when Saddam was killing them.
Ask a Kurd what they think about our efforts in Iraq. You won’t hear any disapproval.
Kevin, pay attention. We are talking about the very real possibility of 2 nations being spawned here: Kurdistan, and Shiite Iraq. neither one would be very well aligned with US interests.
I wasn’t making a dig against Israel, just pointing out that there is no US-style democracy in the middleast, before someone said “yes there is…look at Israel!”
Kevin,
Also note that Zorro’s condesension that no one in the middle east can function in a democracy, that anyone he disagrees with is stupid. Just goes to show how disengaged he is.
Zorro, you are so smart, show us what Saddam did with his WMD. He DID have it and the whole world knew it, even Bubba and Hillary.
we’re discussing serious issues here, and you guys are worried about “condescension”? This is ridiculous…or are you trying to say that there IS a US-style democracy in the middleeast?
We know what Saddam did with his WMD- he destroyed them, just as ordered by the UN. But he bluffed so as not to look weak to his citizens and neighbors. There was a lot of bacvk-channel wrangling going on before we invaded…in the near future someone, most likely Colin Powell, will come clean that they knew all along.
*snapping to attention* I disagree that Kurdistan would not be aligned with the US, but I also consider it unimportant.
In the unlikely event that Iraq breaks into parts, the parts will be democratic, thanks to the coalition’s good work there. True democracies are rarely a threat to other democracies. Heck, the french government despises us. How much damage has that done to the US?
Zorro, pay attention. The world is a better place with democratic states. We went to war because it was vital to our security as you mentioned. We are finishing the job because it is both vital to our future security, and vital to the freedom of 26 million Iraqis. Don’t talk about shoulda coulda wouldas, and offer some helpful advice for the future. Quit whining about how it is not being done to your specifications, and rejoice that it is even being done at all.
Really, Kevin. If the Kurds form their own soveriegn state, Turkey will immeadiately declare war on it. They have already said so. Turkey is our strongest ally in the Muslim world…
…no problem, you say.
Save your rejoicing for the temple…the real problems in Iraq have not yet begun.
Zorro,
Stop whining about being forced to face yourself and how you “debate” with, more like dictate to, others.
Show us proof of the WMD destruction and that the WMD did not get buried or sent to Syria. Otherwise, blow off your left wing (non)talking points.
After looking at all the facts, and the reports, including some I have been exposed to in my work, I am completely convinced that Saddam did NOT destroy his WMD stockpiles. I firmly believe that most of them have been hidden and/or moved out of the country in the long long march that led up to this war (18 months, that’s sure a “rush to war” isn’t it?). What he didn’t have in the way of stockpiles was unimportant, he also was maintaining dual use facilities that could (and would have been) rapidly and easily reconfigured to make chemical weapons.
The reports of the weapons inspectors, complete with their reports of malfeasance by the Iraqis, hiding of papers, assasination of scientists, people going out the back door with materials and equipment while the inspectors were being stalled at the gates, and convoys of trucks heading to Syria and other locations, lead to no other conclusion.
for an adult discussion of this topic, please click:
Zorro, I don’t link up to Daily Kos here. People know the URL if they want to visit. If you don’t think you’re having an adult conversation here, maybe you should ‘give up on us’ and return to your ‘adult conversation’ there. –ST
Zorro,
Thank you for confirming one prejudice you have. That you think anyone to the right of you is not an adult, not educated, not smart…and I can go on about how you can’t address arguments and facts with your betters. You have to denigrate people in order to win your arguments.
>We know what Saddam did with his WMD-
>he destroyed them
Got proof? Take a look through the 6 March 2003 UNMOVIC report, “Unresolved Disarmament Issues.” It lays out the details of what the UN KNEW Sadam had that he hadn’t turned over or proved destroyed. Now, do you also call the UN liars? Will you at least pretend to be consistent?
The Kurds are not going to split with Iraq, but I’ll go down your road one more time.
I am aware that Turkey is against a Kurdish nation, since they have a lot of Kurds in Turkey. But if you honestly think that Turkey, our ally would attack a newly created Khurdistan, also our ally, and the US would not stop it before it started, then you don’t understand America. Standing by our allies is what gets us in trouble so much. We would immediately side with the non-agressive country, and the war would not occur.
I find it saddening that you are so concerned about future violence that you would prefer these people had continued to live in dictatorially enforced peace. PCD is right, you really don’t think they can take care of themselves.
That was a link to my diary with the same topic…a number well informed people had much to say. You shouldn’t have your blinders on so tight Sistah!
*sigh* Even if WERE wearing blinders, I’d still have enough sense not to visit there for them to be ‘lifted’.
I DO appreciate your visit to my blog, though – I’m sure it was an act of selflessness on your part to try to educate us all.
To Zorro:
Pot, meet kettle.
A very informed comment that you didn’t link to:
Why won’t you respect my rules? –ST
zorro,
We don’t have time to waste on moonbat drivel. You got something to say, cut and paste your diary. The only thing is that is your diary, not any objective analysis or on scene observation. Don’t get your widdle feelings hurt if we reject them and go back to the adult discussion.
“You got something to say, cut and paste your diary.”
I tried and ST edited it out.
You reposted someone ELSE’S comments onto this site, so what you had was something someone else said from your DK diary, not your comments themselves. This was from the same link I asked you not to use, after you posted it and asked us to visit it for a more ‘adult’ convo.
Zorro,
No, the good Sister cut your link to “Daily Krap”. If you really are an adult, you can type your arguments and link to credible sources, not the lies, venom, and drivel spewed at sites like “Daily Krap”.
I think we should all be happy that a person with a diary on Kos has lasted this long without swearing.
But seriously Zorro, if you came here to convince us that the war is a failure or that we should bail, or even that the Bush administration is evil, you’ve come to the wrong place. We’ve all seen the information, and we’ve all come to whatever conclusions we have come to. You should know that some ‘double-secret never-before-seen memo’ or idea is not going to change that opinion. Just as I know that if peace broke out in Iraq tomorrow, the troops came home and democracy spread, you would still consider the war a failure.
Oh darn, I re-read his first post, and he did swear
Kevin,
I really resented zorro’s haughtiness in telling us we are all wrong, inferring that we were the children when he tried to lead us by the hand to his fellow children making mud pies in the sand box when he was cornered. Also, you lay charges on him, and like a true lefty, he ignored them and move back to his the right is wrong mantra with out refuting a thing.
Somewhere, in the fantasy universe Liberals live in, they are convinced that they can undermine the decision to support Saddam’s overthrow that was made on the basis of rational thought, logical argument and over a decade of documentation by screeching, “Bush lied!” Unfortunately for them, we keep asking for some rational basis for that claim, and there isn’t one. Either that, or they scream, “run away!” because {gasp} people actually die when fighting brutal, vicious terrorists. Of course, we could name several thousand who died while not fighting terrorists, but minding their own businesses one fine fall morning.
Cav,
I know. I emailed a link to the good Sister where some GOP students in Colorado confronted Ward Connerly and asked him to circle the names on a banner of people Connerly thought deserved to die in 9/11. Connerly blustered and backed away from actually slandering any victim in particular, just leaving his blood libel unproven in public.
Hah! That sounds like an interesting read. Hope she posts it.
Drudge is reporting that the Terrorists have set a 8 Dec. deadline for Iraq and the Coalition to surrender or the 4 activists they kidnapped will be executed. Watch for excessive kvetching by leftists the world over.
This is nothing more than the typical right wing intolerance of opposing views, where anyone who opposes the president is unpatriotic and harming our troops. I doubt that any criticism of the president by the Democrats is hurting our troops’ morale nearly as much as some of the poor decisions made by the civilian leadership, such as not providing enough armored vehicles for our troops. When American soldiers were being killed by roadside bombs because their vehicles lacked armor, Sister Toldjah was silent, but when some Democrats criticize the president, she is outraged.
I seriously doubt criticism of the president has much effect on the troops. I’m sure they’re a lot more concerned about avoiding bombs and bullets than what is going on in Washington D.C.. The fact is that in practically every single war fought by the United States, with the exception of World War II, there has almost always been strong opposition to the war by many Americans. Despite this opposition, in most cases our troops prevailed. In the article below, Larry Elder documented the strong opposition to many wars fought by the U.S.:
LINK
Your snide comments about me aside, this is nothing more than typical ignorance of the overall issue by people like you Brian who refuse to see the big picture.
It doesn’t matter whether you believe or not that comments made here affect the morale in Iraq. They do. Why don’t you ask a Vietnam vet how much the over the top criticism during Vietnam here hurt morale there and emboldened the enemy? It is DOCUMENTED.
This is the thing about some people on the left: the NEVER LEARN from mistakes from the past. They just keep repeating them. Well this time, lives are at stake while the liars in Washington continue to make bogus accusations of ‘lies’ and ‘misleading’ – it’s not about average criticism, it’s about criticism that is knowingly FALSE made for purposes of politcal gain during a time of war. It doesn’t surprise me that you support such faux ‘criticism’ but it makes me sad all the more that you guys continue to not get it. Some of you guys on the left do not have a clue how to conduct yourselves during a time of war. Not a clue. And it hurts our chances of winning. We WILL win this war, but it will be in spite of the constant lies and whining by the usual suspects.
I have to agree with you Sis. We will win this war, we are winning this peace. Things are working out in Iraq, Iraq will be free. We will not turn and run this time. We are not under a democrat President, who, due to bad poll numbers, pulls the troops out before the mission is finished.
As far as the Kurds go. Actually we knew they wanted independance since Desert Storm. It is no surprise that they are acting on their own now. But I have no doubt that they are committed to a democratic Iraq, since they are given a voice in the new government.
I long for our troops to come home. They desire it too. But they also know the importance of the mission, and they will stay and do what they know is the right thing to do, for the Iraqi people and for the United States.
This war was a long time in coming. Saddamn attacked the US as much as he dared. He was constantly testing our resolve by ordering his pilots in the no fly zone. Several times he tried to sneak radar and radar jamming devices into the no fly zone to help his planes. Good thing our jets have rockets that home in on such signals. He tried to assasinate a former US President. That alone is reason to go to war. He was killed hundreds of thousands of his own people, he developed weapons he was not suppose to have. He bought weapon systems and equipment that he was not suppose to, thanks to our “allies”. He broke 14 UN resolutions and was bribing UN and world officials with oil money. All the while these officials looked away as people in Iraq were starving and dying of cureable deseases, while Saddamn built palaces. Noooo we shouldn’t have gone to war in 2003. We should of went to war in 1996, but then when a country is run by a poll believing idiot, it would of hurt someone’s image to do the right thing. – Lorica
Why wasn’t the same standard invoked to get us into Kosovo, used to get us into Iraq?? And when it is, people kvetch about it. (thanks PCD)
Also I noticed my earlier post was missing a link.
http://www.army.mil
Bui Tin, a former colonel in the North Vietnamese army responded:
Q: Was the American antiwar movement important to Hanoi’s victory?
A: “It was essential to our strategy. Support of the war from our rear was completely secure while the American rear was vulnerable. Every day our leadership would listen to world news over the radio at 9 a.m. to follow the growth of the American antiwar movement. Visits to Hanoi by people like Jane Fonda, and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and ministers gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses. We were elated when Jane Fonda, wearing a red Vietnamese dress, said at a press conference that she was ashamed of American actions in the war and that she would struggle along with us.”
Now, what was it you were saying about criticism hurting the morale of the troops and the war?????
No fair! NC Cop is using facts! You are not allowed to use facts when having a discussion with a liberal. You are only allowed to use woulda shoulda couldas, like “If we would have only done such and such, the world would be at peace, therefore Bush is evil/stupid.”
When you throw facts into the mix, it is impossible to have a long drawn out pointless argument. So cut it out
NC Cop,
Your quote from a North Vietnamese Colonel does absolutely nothing to show that criticism of the Vietnam War hurt the morale of American Troops. Your comment was from someone from the North Vietnamese Army. What does his comment have to do with the morale of American Troops?
By all accounts I’ve read of the Vietnam War, most American Soldiers fought bravely against opposing forces. The reason why the United States was not successful in Vietnam was because of poor leadership. The morale of American troops was not a factor in the war. The same thing can be said about Iraq. The reason why the United States so far has not been successful in Iraq is because of poor leadership, not because of any criticism of the war. Bush supporters, such as Sister Toldjah, are trying to shift the blame for how badly things are going in Iraq away from the president and onto the Democrats. The fact is President Bush and the Republicans have complete control of government and they have full power to run the war as the see fit. Congress has not interfered with how President Bush has been running the war. President Bush is the one who is ultimately responsible for the success or failure of what happens in Iraq.
Did you even bother reading the article I linked to? There has been strong opposition to practically ever war the U.S. has ever fought, yet in most wars the U.S. has prevailed.
Kevin,
NC Cop’s “facts” had nothing to do with whether or not opposition to the Vietnam War hurt our troops morale. The fact is, there has been strong opposition to practically ever war the U.S. has ever fought, yet in most wars the U.S. has prevailed. This fact seems to be lost upon you.
You just never will get it, will you Brian? Believe whatever you want to, but people in the military who’ve been around the block a few times with respect to fighting in wars will tell you that negative comments – whether they be foreign or domestic – DO hurt troop morale and embolden the enemy. Your ignorance (especially considering the admission by the Bui Tin) doesn’t change that fact.
BTW, NC Cop is THERE. You are not. I think most of us will accept his word over yours in terms of how what we say here at home affects our troops. He has one on one interaction with them. YOU do not.