No, Steve’s point isn’t clear. Please show us the text in NAFTA where “undocumented” workers are allowed to be hired.

Complete fabricication as his posts always are. Nothing truthful except that is what he “feels”.

I see Boston likes to generalize by saying, “The righties want cheap labor at any cost and the lefties seem to want to help everyone except current citizens“….

Businesses that hire illegals cannot be characterized as the “righties”. Businesses have generally donated to both parties and in ever increasing amounts as government gets larger. Why do businesses give to both parties as government gets larger? for favorable treatment as opposed to unfavorable treatment. I’m sorry you like the cliche’s. It’d be nice if facts were important.

It is this point that illustrates why we are in the current pickle on immigration.

The righties want cheap labor at any cost and the lefties seem to want to help everyone except current citizens.

Us regular Americans who try and keep our jobs in this insane ‘global’ economy are getting screwed by both the left and the right.

Time for a centrist party to form in the US like the new one in Israel. It would clean up if it actually gave a cr*p about Americans instead of wealthy corporations and illegals.

If 100,000 of the federal prison population (estimate with no research on the actual prison population but knowing that 17% are illegal) then that is a cost of 3 Billion per year.

The roads.
The hospitals that have had to close.
The benefits that have to be doled out.

Just here in CA the WIC program gives out more than $600 million in benefits and do you want to know who receives 1/3rd of those benefits according to estimates? Why is that? Because if you are a mom with child under 5 and you are under 185% of poverty you can receive WIC benefits. You don’t even have to be under poverty level. You can be above it. This is 1 program/benefit out of a couple dozen I could name. It is a huge cost to US. It is also less services needed to render if we don’t need to provide services to the people who leave. Acting like they leaving will really have us scrambling for people to provide services is not very intelligent of an argument. You only need to provide as much services generally as there are people. Absent people don’t need services, shelter, food, health care, education, their car fixed, their teeth fixed, their hair cut, their food served, benefits doled out.

You would be wise to take that argument off the table.

If the federal jails have 17% illegal immigrants, if our schools have 11 million illegal immigrants… the roads, the hospitals (health care), the education, etc. All those things require labor and services rendered. The illegal immigrants leaving makes it so less services/labor is needed. The American economy more or less needs as much labor as there is people. Your ridiculous argument suggests that we need more labor that there is people. As if what? We have the right to lay back and be waited on by slaves? No. This would be the OPPOSITE of what Paul Krugman believes. We do not deserve a slave class. To be humane as Paul Krugman rights we need to pay a living wage and they need to receive all benefits and entitlements and health care and the works. Working under the table and or with someone elses social security is not the way towards having a secure nation and one with enough funds to provide government services for everyone.

Nope. I propose the opposite of you. If illegal immigrants can’t be employed or receive benefits they will find that they have to leave. Leaving will cost us less (referring to your printing money argument) because our hospitals, schools, jails will not be over utilized.

Your argument of marginalization is backwards. If people feel welcomed here they will be attracted even more. Amnesty and giving benefits and full citizenzhip quickly (after breaking the law) will attract more and more illegal immigrants. All of these people need care, benefits, education, health care, jailing, roads, etc. I’m sorry but we are generous. We allow more legal immigrants than all other countries comibined. That is good. Now we can take a stand for once and for all and really help the people who came illegally understand they need to go home.

A few deportations will do the trick also. We don’t need buses from Tijuany to Anchorage. We only need to START enforcing our laws and not doling out benefits before people realize they will not be rewarded for law breaking and will not be allowed to continue breaking the law. We need to know who is in this country. The national security implications are tremendous

CB made a false argument saying, “With our economy in the crapper cause we’ve kicked out all our laborers and small businesses (70%of the job providers) going out of business right and left…who’s going to pay for your ‘national security’ then, baklava?

You are behind in understanding the issue. Even Paul Krugman gets it. He sets you straight on the costs to the U.S. Badly sets you straight. So bad it hurts to watch.

CB wrote, “But hey, I guess if we go broke”

Paul Krugman thinks as I do that we have a higher chance going broke over the benefits and entitlements that’ll cost us to allow illegal immigration to exist. Not knowing who is here needs to be solved so that we spend less in homeland security. The way to know who is here is making it so that if you aren’t a citizen or with visa you will pretty much HAVE TO GO HOME to get money.

National security implications are exactly what I meant when I said,

“The other nice benefit of this idea is that it would drastically cut the border patrol’s work load allowing them to focus on those who seek to come here persuing criminal intentions.”

LIKE TERRORISM

Baklava, I don’t know where you’ve been for the last 4 1/2 years, but I’ve really seen a huge increase in port/border security given the billions upon billions of dollars we’ve spent to improve it…and it’s everything the border patrol can do not to get thier asses shot off. They’re streched too thin chasing the folks who just want to work.

It just blows me away. Is it just that because the government prints money, they’ll never run out? We can’t keep spending like we are….national security….what do you propose, the mexican “iron curtain” with barbed wire and land mines? With our economy in the crapper cause we’ve kicked out all our laborers and small businesses (70%of the job providers) going out of business right and left…who’s going to pay for your ‘national security’ then, baklava?

I would argue that in a general sense, doing any thing other than what I propose is a higher threat to our national security than anything coming across our southern border.

But hey, I guess if we go broke….we’ll cease to exist as a target for Islamo-faciscm…we’ll be just like mexico and no one will want anything to do with us.

Amen.

We are generous. We allow more legal immigrants into this country than all other countries combined and need to enforce our laws and provide for out national security. Being illegal and being paid under the table and/or using someone elses social security number to pay taxes and have earnings above the table isn’t helpful.

I live in the metro Phoenix area, and I have been here for going on twenty-five years. I am now getting ready to leave Arizona, as the crime rate in my town has skyrocketed, and the threat of crime is ever-present. I have some friends on the local police force, and they feel it is mostly due to the influx of illegal Mexicans settling here. Is every Mexican that comes here illegally responsible for the crime wave? Of course not. However, the fact is that over two-thirds of the prison inmates incarcerated in Arizona are illegal aliens. Many of the publicly-funded hospitals here in the State are being overwhelmed by illegals who arrive ready to give birth to ‘Anchor Babies’ and demand free service from the medical facilities because they know they can get it. This has caused many of the hospitals to operate in bancruptcy, their staff never knowing when their next paycheck will be their last. This is also a huge burden on the taxpayers and those who prefer to ‘pay their own way’ as the costs of healthcare for us has drastically increased to compensate for all the ‘freebies’ that are given out. The police here are overwhelmed with the task of dealing with the gang activity that is now present. We actually have armed guards at the entrances to the GROCERY stores that are around me due to constant robberies, and we are #1 in the nation for auto theft. Coincidence? I think not. Think I just happen to live in a ‘bad’ part of town? Think again. My home is in Tempe – yup – home of the AZ Cardinals and Arizona State University. Tempe was once considered the center of culture in the Valley, and a very desireable place to live. Now when I mention I live in Tempe, many shake their heads and say “Oh man, that place has gotten baaadd…”

My grandparents immigrated here legally, through Ellis Island. As a condition of immigration, they had to have a sponsor, enough cash to survive without being a burden on the community, and a job waiting for them. That was just to get off the boat, never mind being granted citizenship. Like many, many others before and after them, they learned English, and became citizens. My grandmother would tell me that her mother and friends would sit around and listen to her speak English after she had been here only a year – they marvelled at how beautifully she spoke it. She was only a child then, but felt it was important to immerse herself into the American culture. As new Americans, they never took a dime of welfare benefits, never used the ’system’ to cost the taxpayers an extra penny. They were proud of that. They also never flew the Austrian flag outside of their home – but you better believe the United States flag was always present. They helped instill in me patriotism for this country, and respect for the rule of law.

I admire and respect all those that ‘earn’ their citizenship to this country, as it is those people and their children that make the best stewards of our nation. It is very telling to me that many of those marching in the anti-immigration reform rallies were displaying the flag of their country of choice – Mexico. Perhaps they should instead be marching to Vincente Fox’s office , and demanding that he keep his campaign promises and reform THEIR country, and make it a place worth living in. Maybe then the corruption that drives the poverty in Mexico will begin to abate.

Currently they are forbidden to ask if they are here illegally.

And, if they are found hte be here illeally and have committed a crime, allow them to contact INS and have them deported.

No need for extra money to be spent searching out illegal immigrants, but let law enforcement oficers who find illegals committing crimes allow them to remove these illegal immigrant criminals from the US and put them back into the country of origin they have come from.

Like drugs…as long as our market has a demand for this (labor), they will continue to come. And the more we marginalize them when they get here the less likely they will be to assimilate into our culture (like learn english…obey our laws…yada yada yada). This marginalization is what costs us the bucks, not the mexicans. Blaming employers is rediculous. Blaming anyone is rediculous. They’re here simply because our good economy dictates such and that can’t be changed. The only thing that can is dealing with thier presence in a way that is most economically beneficial to everyone involved.

#1 to work for money
#2 to get money criminally

Everyone has to agree that those in the first category far far far outnumber those in the second. Additionally, whether you want to admit it or not, everybody knows that our economy REQUIRES the good cheap labor. Without it, our economy would tank.

So what needs to happen here, keep in mind best solutions are not always fair to everyone, is amnesty (ie. green cards) need to be issued to all illegals currently employed in the US (for some set period of time) and thier families.

Second, the US Govn’t should then make it known to all those central americans that intend on coming here to work, that we would love to have them, but with restrictions. ie, proof of employment, seasonal terms–meaning they would be expected to return home after the season if one existed in thier line of work…etc.

The workers would be free to go back and forth w/out worry to see their family. (This would stop people from sneaking everyone over in fear of getting popped on multiple border excursions)

This is basically what Bush is describing in his temp worker permit program…the only difference would be the amnesty part which would be necessary to avoid the cost (both economic and moral)of chasing these folks down.

The other nice benefit of this idea is that it would drastically cut the border patrol’s work load allowing them to focus on those who seek to come here persuing criminal intentions.