Hey chief, can you show me where I called him a traitor? Didn’t think so. Try and actually read the posts before you fly off the handle, ok? It’s called a differnece of opinion, look it up.

And since you swore to “uphold and defend the Constitution” when you went in then some might say you’re the traitor.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean, try again.

Bin Laden got exactly what he wanted: to get rid of our freedoms.

Really? I keep hearing about him and his group wanting to wipe Israel and the U.S. off the map. Still haven’t heard anything about them trying to get rid of our freedoms? Nice try, though.

The pity is he didn’t HAVE to do it, we did it to ourselves when all we had was, yes, a LAW ENFORCEMENT problem

Precisely the kind of thinking that led to the deaths of 3,000 people on 9/11. So we should have tried to arrest Bin Laden and his group rather than destroy them? Brilliant plan. Were you on Clinton’s cabinet?

Instead we pop off and invade Iraq.

Oh, I know. After only 12 short years of Saddam flipping off the U.N. and their inspectors we fly off the handle and invade for no reason.

NC cop” Oh, thank you, ME for making it simple for me. Since I spent 14 months in Iraq I was so confused as to what was going on over there. How many months have you spent in Iraq?”

ok NC, Paul Hackett spent a few months in Iraq I’d say and does his opinion count? Can you come up with something besides he’s just a traitor? You don’t know what has happened to the Fourth Amendment as a result of Jose Padilla, do you? And since you swore to “uphold and defend the Constitution” when you went in then some might say you’re the traitor. Bin Laden got exactly what he wanted: to get rid of our freedoms. The pity is he didn’t HAVE to do it, we did it to ourselves when all we had was, yes, a LAW ENFORCEMENT problem of an international gang that we should have run down a long time ago, with Special Forces and the world’s help. Instead we pop off and invade Iraq.

ME, you bring absolutely nothing new to the party. We’ve seen every single thing you’ve said before, from people both wittier than you and stupider than you, but the song remains the same. Same lies, same obsfucation, same distortions all wrapped up in a self-righteous, sanctimonius, narcissistic, and nihilistic package. Same immature, selfish, juvenile attitude. You care nothing about the Iraqis, nothing about the troops and people who have sacrificed and suffered trying to solve this problem. You and your ilk are really good at paying lip service to this, you whine and wheedle that it’s you who really “care” about the troops and the poor Iraqis as you try and throw them all under the bus.

You only care about casualties, both ours and Iraqi, because it gives you a lever you can use to tug on the heartstrings of others, you don’t give a damn about them other than as tools to accomplish your defeatist agenda. Same as in Vietnam, your kind didn’t give a damn about the massive destruction and death that occurred after you managed to get all support for the South Vietnamese withdrawn.

You’ve said it yourself, you want the right wing to pay for this. You are really dedicated to destroying your enemies, unfortunately for the country and the world you view your fellow countrymen as your enemies, not the brutal, vicious Islamist thugs who started this war and who want all of our heads. And you’re petty and vindictive enough you are willing to sacrifice both blood and security to get your way. You honestly are like children, the past 3 years of this war have been like a long road trip with a back seat full of whiney 6 year olds. Are we there yet, you bleat, it’s hard, you whine, I don’t wanna gooooo, I’m tiiiired, you shriek, all the time kicking the back of the seat, trying to get the adults to throw up their hands and finally say “OK that’s it, I’m turning this car around right now!” Only this isn’t a vacation trip to Wally World, this is a deadly serious business, and you children are interfering with the heavy lifting the adults are trying to accomplish.

So, continue to bleat all you want, we’ve seen and heard it all before. Contrary to your belief, you are neither a stunning intellect or a first class forensic debater, but yet another callous, shallow, unoriginal person parroting the party line. I swear, if one of managed to come up with a single original thought or argument I’d probably die of shock.

You and your ilk are still repugnant back stabbers, disloyal to the country that succors you.

Al-Qaida forces in Iraq – forces that are, at least on paper, allies of the Sunni insurgents

You see, ME, in case you don’t understand, that means that the Sunnis in Iraq and Al Qaeda ARE allies. Certain Sunnis in Iraq may not like it, but they are working together. Get it?

It was republicans who demanded that Bill Clinton pull out right away back then.

That is a flat out lie. After Clinton spewed that crap it was disproven the next day. Sorry. The soldiers in Somalia asked for armor and air support and it was denied by ol’ Billy who was afraid it was too much. You can chalk those 19 soldiers up to him. Somalia then fell into the hands of the extremists and were removed by force.

Now you crow about how 3,000 isn’t that big of a deal.

Please show me in my previous post where I said anything about 3,000 not being a big deal. If anything I’m the one saying that it was too many, due to the incompetence of the Clinton administration. You are the one who said the only terrorism you fear is nuclear terrorism. Check me on this but the terrorists didn’t need nukes to slaughter those people on 9/11.

It’s obvious that facts are of little consequence to you, ME. You seem to be representative of most liberals who only hear what they want to hear. So, continue to bury your head and pretend the threats don’t exist. Then when they strike, pull your head out long enough to cry “how did this happen?!” and find the nearest Republican to blame. I really hope people like you wake up before it’s too late. It seems that the Congress and Senate are now controlled by people who think the same way as you do. That’s what terrifies me.

I’m through with you, ME. Enjoy your little fantasy world that you have created and just pray that Al Qaeda doesn’t come calling. Oh, that’s right, according to you they’re not a threat unless they are nuclear.

So the fact that the Sunnis, who are the minority in Iraq, have enjoyed ruling Iraq for the last 30 years or so, is of no consequence. I think that proves that the minority can rule the majority, don’t you?

A 30% sunni minority, sure. But I was talking about the minority of the minority (qaeda, not baathists)…qaeda in Iraq is less than 1% of the population.

Of course regardless of all that, the Shiia will win in Iraq. They are already in control politically, and only need to kill off or marginalize enough Suniis to consolidate power. It may take 20 years, but it’ll happen eventually.

So who do you want to win in Iraq? Iran, or qaeda? Since Severian was arguing they are all in cahoots against the US anyway, I suppose the best option for the US would be a secular sunni government, as they would not kowtow to qaeda or Iran. Oh, wait, that’s right…we’re the ones who took out the secular baathist regime and created this mess in the first place.

As for the religion thing… I was just pointing out the various ways that conservatives either deny or construct their own provably false version of reality.

Perhaps you can explain how Ethiopia’s Christian army was able to drive the extremists out of Somalia by FORCE so effectively?

I don’t know why I’d have to explain, but what the hell… the muslim extremists in Somalia, just like in Afghanistan, were in charge of the official infrastructure. They manned classical defensive posts that could serve as targets. It wasn’t guerrilla warfare. It was conventional warfare. The type we and other conventional forces are good at fighting. No one argued we couldn’t take out Saddam’s army, or qaeda in afghanistan…it’s the whole guerrilla insurgency thing that we (and every other conventional army in the history of the world) can’t win.

The last time we were in Somalia, we were fighting warlords… the same ones we gave financial aid to in a failed attempt to have them fight the extremists taking over. It was republicans who demanded that Bill Clinton pull out right away back then. 19 soldiers dead were too many. Now you crow about how 3,000 isn’t that big of a deal.

I’m all about using FORCE to project power. I think the US prevents more deaths and more wars than it creates. But wrong is wrong, and I’m not afraid to say so. This war is toast. finito. over. Bush lost the war. There is no turning point ahead. How many more years will you stay there, with no progress, before you’ll accept that we can’t fix it? Who’s responsiblity will the extra few thousand dead american troops be when you realize it’s a bust? It won’t be Cindy Sheehan’s.

Right. So the fact that the Sunnis, who are the minority in Iraq, have enjoyed ruling Iraq for the last 30 years or so, is of no consequence. I think that proves that the minority can rule the majority, don’t you?

Where did you get the idea that Sunnis in Iraq don’t like the Sunnis in Al Qaeda because they are foreigners?! That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard.

Perhaps you could post some links to all of your so called “evidence”. That would help alot.

I really don’t think you want to get into the topic of conspiracy nuts, considering your buddies on the left have blamed Bush for everything from 9/11 to hurricanes.

Not really sure why you drag religion into the argument, other than to try and change the topic, which is a typical tactic of the left. I’m still waiting on you to tell us of your experiences in Iraq.

Also, all my predictions regarding Iraq have turned out to be right,

Well I guess we’ll just have to take your word on that, won’t we?

How many times do you righties have to be predictably wrong before you reconsider things?

I seem to recall alot of democrats/liberals who were talking about the threat Iraq posed before we ever set foot in Iraq. Yes, I know, they didn’t get the right intelligence. I’m aware of that BS excuse that seemed to get all of them off the hook.

How many times do you lefties have to be wrong and cost the lives of thousands before you admit that burying your head in the sand, doesn’t solve the problems?

Perhaps you can explain how Ethiopia’s Christian army was able to drive the extremists out of Somalia by FORCE so effectively?

The only threat I fear is nuclear terrorism. Everything else is small beans in comparison and doesn’t really scare me. That said, they could probably never get their hands on enough nukes to cause the “death of western civilization”, so you do sound a little nuts to me on that front.

The only sensible way to deal with that threat is to counter proliferation and scan EVERY cargo container that enters this country for radiation. That could be accomplished for less than the cost of the Iraq war.

Instead we have the policies of GWB, which make us less safe, but keep WalMart’s bottom line looking good.

Who is it that doesn’t understand the nature of the threat?

As for the Iranian’s caught in Iraq:

“The source was careful to stress that the Iranian plans do not extend to cooperation with Baathist groups fighting the government in Baghdad, and said the documents rather show how the Quds Force — the arm of Iran’s revolutionary guard that supports Shiite Hezbollah, Sunni Hamas, and Shiite death squads — is working with individuals affiliated with Al Qaeda in Iraq and Ansar al-Sunna.”

So when you say that Iran is helping the sunnis, you need to be clear that they are helping Quaeda, not the sunni bathists (which the shiia militias are killing). None of this contradicts or disproves anything I’ve said.

It’s absurd to think that al-quaeda could ever take over Iraq. They are foreigners, they are the minority of the minority. They are touble makers, yes, but they are incapable of becoming powerful in Iraq.

And for the record, I’ve had enough arguments with people on both the left and right to know I’m not a partisan nutjob. Also, all my predictions regarding Iraq have turned out to be right, while all the right’s predictions have been wrong. How many times do you righties have to be predictably wrong before you reconsider things?

Evolution? Bullsh*t!
Geology? All wrong!
Global Warming? Conspiracy!
Jesus? Why he’s a real 2000 year old magic carpenter who flew up to heaven! and he’s coming back, soon! and all those other ancient myths about miracle-making messiahs born of virgins who flew to heaven (mythras for example)? Those were planted by the devil to fool you! Fossils? planted by the Devil!

and I’m the partisan incapable of individual thought. laughable.

You must have some capacity to understand why this all seems so utterly rediculous to me, but I won’t count on it.

That’s how one news reporter described Cindy Sheehan. An appropriate description. It will be interesting to see how the Democrats deal with the monster that they, along with their friends in the mainstream media, have created. If their first encounter…

Hindsight is always 20/20 isn’t it ME. It’s so easy to sit there and be a, what was it you referred to me as, oh yes, an armchair general. Unless, of course, you knew all these things were going to happen ahead of time. In that case you are quite the fortune teller.

We went into Iraq because of their WMD and their support of terrorism. I honestly thought that 9/11 showed people that ignoring threats leads to disaster, but I guess there are still those that believe that we should wait until 3,000 people are slaughtered before we take action. How sad.

Perhaps, ME, you can tell us what we should have done? How should we have dealt with Al Qaeda? How should we have dealt with Iraq? Iran? Please, enlighten us all with some more of your infinite wisdom.

Damn, NC Cop! How dare you bring personal experience and observation into this!

I know, Sev, I’m sorry. Far be it from me to disagree with people like Richard Belzer and ME who obviously know alot more about Iraq than I. It is apparent that reading alot of newspapers and magazines is far more important than actually spending time in the country. Just ask ME.

If the facts don’t fit their agenda, they don’t exist. ME is a prime example of Orwellian Minitruth at work.

But that doesn’t matter eh? You all showed those evil Republicans what’s what didn’t you, got us out of a war you didn’t want to fight. Try not to break your arm patting yourself on the back…

If you succeed in turning Iraq into another Vietnam, in snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, things will be orders of magnitude worse. The North Vietnamese never attacked the US homeland, nor did they ever have any intention of doing so, the Islamists have proven they harbor no such lack of ambition.

Throughout your entire posts in this thread of you don’t want to win, no matter what lip service you pay to it, you want this to be a failure to teach the Republicans a lesson. You said it yourself:

I want the right-wing to accept their failure as theirs and no one else’s.

No matter what other BS you try and sling, this is the relevant point, you are a petty and vindictive partisan hack. You care nothing for the US, despite your protestations to the contrary, you care nothing for the Iraqi people who will suffer immensely if this thing goes completely south, all you care about is teaching the right wing a lesson. Again, you are disgusting in the extreme.

ME, there is ample evidence of everything I said, in translated documents, from the horses mouth so to speak. I’m also betting you’re one of those astute liberals who attempted to explain away over 500 chemical munitions as “old and safe.”

People like you, who for petty partisan reasons are completely unwilling or unable to recognize the nature of the threat against us, who will be the death of Western civilization.