After all its more important to please big business than it is to keep what support we do have and fight the darn war.

If there are people who are no longer supporting the war on terror due to this immigration bill, they really need to gain control over their emotions. They are flat out wrong. Also, my problem isn’t with the President, my problem isn’t with anyone who supported this bill. My problem is with this do nothing, all talk, no action group of hypocrites who run Congress. I don’t trust them, and I think many of the left in Congress are suffering with varying degrees of BDS. How Reid is a Senator, and as completely stupid as he is, is quite astonishing. I am actually amazed by men like Kyl and McConnell that they would try to work with these people. I have posted many times that I would have washed my hands of them from the onset, but I can be abit fatalistic, when it comes to people who are hard to get along with. I don’t like to work with stubbornly stupid people.

I do believe that come 2008, the people who are seeking some retribution will have forgotten their anger and come to their senses. We need strong conservative leadership, and my largest problem with President Bush has been and always will be that he only liked to back moderates. Well I am sorry, but it has happened time and time again, once a person gets elected and heads to DC, their politics move left. If you are half way there already what is stopping you from going the other way, Graham is a perfect example.

I also hope and pray that those in Congress who want to keep their jobs, will get down to the hard work that has been waiting attention for how many years now?? Healthcare was a Hillary Clinton issue, what has she done since 1993?? Social Security, Border Protection, why is it these guys let stuff fester until it starts to rot then decide it is “time for NEW legislation”??? Immigration has been a problem for over 10 years, but nothing ever was done about it until it hit critical mass. Now this Government has no choice but to start following the laws that everyone should be following to begin with. Is it going to take a couple of nukes going off in some of our cities to wake these people up to our need for border protection?? You think you will have a bad immigration bill under a Dem administration, try after we have another attack.

There were just so much more important things to work on than “new” immigration, like another waste of time troop withdraw proposal, what are we on the 4th or the 5th?? But by God we got the minimum wage bill into law!!!! Still waiting on that 40 hour work week there Nancy. – Lorica

But solid conservatives like Jon Kyl and Mitch McConnell should not be targeted simply because they weren’t marching 100% lockstep with how most conservatives felt about this bill. We need good Senators like the two of them to fight against the Democrats.

Pierre:

You almost have a point…except that actually we already have laws on the books.

Oh no, I do have a point and one that can’t be so easily dismissed by your anti-bill dogma – whether we have laws on the books or not is immaterial to the point I’m making about how many conservatives who opposed this bill treated those who weren’t against it 100%, as well as the way those same conservatives are talking about “punishing” good Senators like Jon Kyl and Mitch McConnell. If either of those two get defeated next year, I will not blame Senators like Lindsay Graham (who is one of the Senators who needs to go) but people who wanted to punish the likes of Kyl and McConnell because they aren’t party puritans* on the issue of immigration.

Oh and before I forget…why is it always put on the conservatives that we will bear the responsibility if the Republicans lose? Why don’t the Republicans who do dumb things bear some responsibility? Why don’t the Republicans who didn’t raise Defense Spending to at LEAST the levels of Clintons first three years bear responsibility for losing the vote?

Uh, who said they didn’t? But the people who apparently don’t think they will bear some responsibility are people who think it’s their duty to punish good Senators like Kyl and McConnell. The fact that those people want to blame everyone but themselves reminds me of Democrats who like to blame everything under the sun on Bush even though most of the stuff they blame him for can be blamed on themselves. RINOs like Graham need to go. Solid conservatives like Kyl and McConnell we need. Punishing them is like committing political suicide. I will be watching their races very closely next year and praying that the party puritans* on the issue of immigration don’t carry through with their threats.

* By party puritans I don’t mean everyone who opposed this bill but the people who treated conservatives like me as though we were traitors for not toeing the party line, who called the President “Jorge” etc.

But solid conservatives like Jon Kyl and Mitch McConnell should not be targeted simply because they weren’t marching 100% lockstep with how most conservatives felt about this bill. We need good Senators like the two of them to fight against the Democrats.

You almost have a point…except that actually we already have laws on the books. Those two didn’t HAVE to do anything they could have simply gone to the President and asked him if he had lost his mind. With approval ratings in the dumpster heading to the fire this President in the middle of a war of existential import figures what the heck lets really tick off the base. After all its more important to please big business than it is to keep what support we do have and fight the darn war.

There was simply no reason to do this…and if Republicans cannot figure out that whenever Kennedy backs a bill they should run to the hills then maybe we need to clean them out. One of the most sickening images of that fight was seeing Republicans laughing with that murderer. The Republicans are completely out of touch with the mainstream Republicans. Mainstream republicans do not advocate breaking laws, or forgiving those who do, they don’t advocate doubling the size of government bureacracies like the Dept of Education, they don’t chum around with folks like Ted Kennedy.

did not want to see this bill pass, but yet the continued rant is against the evil right. So it comes down to this, that Terrye has made this very personal, and she is hurt, well revenge is not a good politcial bedfellow. She is just going to wake up in bed with something more evil than she could imagine.

Lorica, the people who are being the most vocal about ‘revenge’ are many of the people who were against this bill, who are withholding campaign contributions from the GOP and who are threatening to either not vote next year or want to try and kick out solid conservatives like Kyl and McConnell to ’send a message’ as a form of revenge. The people who feel this way need to overcome, too, if we want any chance to win next year – if I may say so, even more so than the other side, because it’s not people like me and Terrye trying to punish the GOP for their stance on the immigration bill. I know personally for myself I am not against the GOP right now – my issue is with how certain conservatives treated people like me over this bill. I’ve disassociated myself with some conservatives but I haven’t disassociated myself with the Republican party.

Also, I don’t think the bill is going to come up again before the next election. After the way things went this last time, no one is going to want to touch it.

It’s a free country, of course, and people are going to do what they want to do in order to send a message to their reps – I just don’t think what I’ve been seeing and hearing about related to punishing the GOP is a good idea. As I’ve written before, if supporters of the GOP carry through with their threats, the immigration bill we get after the Dems take even more of a majority next year and a Dem president is elected will make this last one look like the work of a pure genius. We do need to enforce what we have on the books, but we also need to abandon this talk of ‘punishing’ the GOP next year by staying home and/or trying to kick out solid conservatives – for reasons I’ve already stated.

Lorica, with all due respect to you, you saying that to Terrye would be just like her saying to you that you should stop talking about how happy you are that the bill failed.

Dear, I am not happy it did not pass. We do need to do something, this bill just wasn’t the answer. What my problem with Terrye is the constant need to make the “right” the bad guys in this. By her own admission

BTW, LaRaza did not support that bill, neither did the ACLU or the AFL-CIO

did not want to see this bill pass, but yet the continued rant is against the evil right. So it comes down to this, that Terrye has made this very personal, and she is hurt, well revenge is not a good politcial bedfellow. She is just going to wake up in bed with something more evil than she could imagine.

It is time to overcome. Since we don’t have new legislation it is time to start enforcing what we do have. Take it out on employers, you don’t have deport a single person. Illegals have been used as throw away people for the last decade, should they continue to be treated that way?? Why is it when Congress bellows about “we need new legistlation” it is nothing more than busy work. There is much more important things to focus on. If our present laws are followed this problem will take care of itself.

Terrye

America go back to Mexico is exactly the kind of paranoid and dishonest nonsense I was talking about.

I am not being paranoid or dishonest, many in Mexico believe that America stole this land from then in the Spanish American war and the Mexican American War. My concern has always been and always will be for the Peoples of Mexico and America. I hate with all my heart the number of people who have died trying to enter this country. I hate the stories I have read about families being cooked alive in container trucks or dying in the desert, or killed by border coyotes. I hate that our national parks all along the border are being burned as a distraction for illegals to enter into this country. How many of the border states are in states of emergency because their southern borders are trashed?? Good Fences make good Neighbors. Something needs to be done, but this bill isn’t it.

Terrye, I do apologize for my earlier comment about being childish. Sometimes I can be stupidly rash. With all my heart I hope and pray that you can overcome and help us during this time of need. – Lorica

Employers should be alot more diligent in thier hiring practices. The problem is, if you follow the rules and your competitor doesn’t, you’re competitor is able to hire people at a lower wage than you, and be more profitable.

It seems there is no penalty for breaking the rules, or no way of forcing employers to follow the rules.

Viable…thats an interesting word. So what you mean is that some alternatives were offered but you didn’t like them so they are not viable according to you.

Construct the wall.

Massive fines on employers (the laws are already there just enforce them)

Take away Federal funds for cities that declared themselves illegal alien havens, NYC and others.

Any business caught hiring illegals is forever banned from bidding on federal contracts.

Those are not viable?

Those are effective.

The President wasted precious capital he doesn’t have on an issue that wasn’t important. All he had to do was quietly start enforcing the laws. Instead he tried to deliver a bill that allows big business to continue screwing over illegals. Dumb.

However, when one side is only interested in demagoguing the issue for political purposes and do not really want to come up with any kind of solution then there will never be any kind of compromise.

Notice how there was not a viable alternative offered after this bill was killed. One would think that if the winners of this little tussle were really such a majority they could come up with something that looks like a solution. Such as what do we do differently and where do the resources to do it come from?

Nothing. Just Fred Thompson making some crack about Cubans being terrorists. There goes Florida if they are not careful. I do not want to see Hillary win, because if she does I shudder to think what President Hillary and super majority of Democrats in the Congress could come up with in a world in which people like Peggy Noonan have made the Republicans irrelevant.

Illegal immigration is a problem, and being here illegally you can’t just demand to be a citizen. Our country has had a system for over 200 years that it uses to decide who gets to come and who doesn’t. I’m sure the system is abused by some percentage, but hopefully as a whole it works.

On the other hand, if you are here filling a position that noone else would take, and assuming you are paying taxes, wouldn’t you expect some rights in this country, whether it be citizenship or something that acknowledges your right to be here?

And those that are serving in the United States military. I would say they are definitely earning their U.S. citizenship.

Taking 2 extremes,
1. Build a giant wall and send 12 million people home.
2. Just let anyone come to the United States and become a citizen.

There has to be something in the middle that makes sense.

How do you decide who gets to come/stay?

What is the benefit to the United States and it’s current citizens to let more/less people become citizens?

What is the best way to ensure that all workers pay their fair share of taxes so they are not a burden on other taxpayers?

At what rate should our nation be growing our population?

There’s probably a few hundred questions that need to be asked and answered genuinely, and bipartisanly, before drafting an immigration bill. I think we should draft one, but take our time about it, look at each issue regarding migration, and see what makes sense.

On the issue of illegal immigration, neither extreme will be satisfied. There will have to be compromise, and whoever is in charge of drawing it up, will be treated like an umpire at a little league baseball game.

This is just my opinion, go ahead and throw the styrofoam coffe cups at me.

My ability to let that go went out the window when I was called a traitor.

And your ability to ignore the kind of really nasty stuff that was out there in regards to the antics of some of the critics of this bill, the lies as well as the not so subtle ethnic and racial slurs that were being thrown around makes it hard to just forget.

BTW, LaRaza did not support that bill, neither did the ACLU or the AFL-CIO and to say that people who did support the bill wanted to see parts of America go back to Mexico is exactly the kind of paranoid and dishonest nonsense I was talking about.

I mean really, would Bush put himself through the kind of stuff he has had to go through with Democrats like Boxer just to track terrorists if he was going to give the southwest to Mexico. The entire idea is ludicrous.

No, you can forget me letting it go. I am pissed and disgusted and I will remember come the next election.

I myself still have issues with how everything went down – I am just choosing to stew over it internally right now.