But CA had to pass a bond spending 3 billion of our money and Democrats and liberals like to bash people as “not caring”.

Take your issue out of politics alchemist. It doesn’t belong in politics. Get out of my pockets !!

On your point 2) I understand. I understand it better enough than you to realize that every utopian project cannot and should not be paid for by the federal or state governments. There is promising research ALL over the place and for liberals and Democrats to glom on this issue like they are SMARTER than thou is irresponsible.

2) Did you read the articles? All I’m saying is that you should understand the science for yourself. This guy can explain it better than I can.

Irresponsible spending by the government of the PEOPLE’s money….

Even though CA has one of the worst credit ratings and large deficits during a good economy the idiot people here passed a 3 billion dollar bond (more than some states spend in their entire budget) on stem cell research.

Democrats have glommed onto this issue alchemist and have turned this into a we good and you bad issue just like every other issue. You and every other liberal do not know what is good for this country. You are tearing this country’s fiscal future apart.

Utopia is for kindergardeners… Grow up!

You want stem cell research ? Return the issue BACK to the people and let Hollywierd or business pay for it. You don’t need MY money.

Notice I’m not talking about embryonic vs. adult stem cells in this post. Irresponsible liberals just want more of my money thrown at embryonic yet there is not even hope in that area. Adult stem cells have the most promise yet Democrats demagogue the embryonic issue into a we good you bad thing… Again. Grow up.

Stem Cell Breakthrough

Here’s the site
What does it take to turn stem cells into a cure?

unfortunately they are ususally trumped by shareholders and profit mongering. people are fine, its when they join together for a common cause (read profits) that they lose a bit of their humanity.

Yes, that darned freedom again!! So much better when the government prohibits free enterprise and other rights. You saw how that worked in places like the Soviet Union when those shareholders were all shot and there was no “profit mongering”.

State control of the economy has never, EVER, led to anything except shortages, rationing, and poor quality goods. Small wonder our leftist Luddites love it.

Anyway, I still think we’re caught of some rather meningless point and missing the whole center of the argument. I’m not quite sure what you’re trying to prove… I beleive it was pro-private sector/private funding, anti-goverment research (but really, there isn’t goverment research, it’s just publicly fundeded academic research). Which is how I started arguing for academic research (as is my pastime). But you don’t seem to have a problem with that so… I’m still not sure what you’re arguing against (or if you’re arguing at all).

Nontheless, work is back in full swing, and my time here is done until mid-december. be back then.

Let me NOT vote for you and your ideas….

I will run from them

nice rant baklava, any chance you heard of the privatization of the iraq war or the katrina response? both fine examples of how “incentives” work.

as for “People have interest in advancing the human condition. People in the private and public sector have interest in advancing the human condition.”

unfortunately they are ususally trumped by shareholders and profit mongering. people are fine, its when they join together for a common cause (read profits) that they lose a bit of their humanity.

now i could take the time to explain this all in detail but your world has been too severly simplified to fit in any useful information.

Next to last line:

Even if stem cells don’t work (ever) there’s still a lot to be learned from letting scientists explore the limitations of stem cell growth to understand why current techniques fail.

If you leave an academic lab, nothing belongs to you. Technically, some universities can prevent you from publishing research accrued on their campus if they choose (although it never happens).

Alot of my argument public vs. private come from your line (which I mistakenly read):

“And where is the compelling reason to use government funds? Why not private funds as 75% of the economy is the private sector and has done plenty of research in this area BEFORE Democrats raised their ugly head thinking they could score political points on the issue.”

So fine, my intentions were the same argument, but terminology was different… if you want, you can input goverment funding = “public”. Most academic research is publicly funded, not privately funded. I think that’s where everything gets garbled. Hopefully, we’re somewhat back on track now…

Of note, even privately funded research groups don’t have access to embryonic stem cell lines (due to demand). Still, (as I’ve been trying to demonstrate, somewhat indirectly) goverment research used on project ‘failures’, sometimes leads to unseen developments. Even if stem cells don’t work (ever) there’s still a lot to be learned from giving scientists the opportunity to try.

Again, I understand it’s complicated for many because of the moral implications.

hmmm. I consider myself the public sector now!

Alchemist wrote, “but I have not heard of govermental group working on stem cells.”

Precisely what I’m saying.

I’m not sure why you keep using the word “industry”. Most discoveries are done in the “private” sector. I’ll keep using that word.

Questions with wrong words don’t need to be answered. When you start using the right words you’ll see my point by yourself !

I guess by ‘public’ sector you mean goverment positions in the FDA, EPA etc? IF that’s the case, I don’t see how they fit into a conversation on stem cell reesearch. My understanding is that most stem cell research was occuring in medical research institutes (usually attached to universities), but I have not heard of govermental group working on stem cells.

Ok, I will accept that prizes are antecdotal. Let’s try this a different way… can you think of any major scientific discoveries that have occurred in industry over the last 10 years?

Again, not trying to insult industry research, just trying to point out the strengths and weaknesses of each.

alchemist wrote, “My point is that academic research is uniquely important”

And why you keep lumping in academic research with public sector vs. private is beyond me.

But then… that’s the way liberals think… (just ribbing you)

and for your last point. Well taken but Prizes are anecdotal also.

There is 10 to 100 times more r&d done by the private sector vs. the public sector.

And it’s a really stupid point I’m harping on here.

There were other lefties in this thread doing their typical private sector = industry = bad dance. It’s the Democrat/leftist way !!

Look, I’m not trying to say one is better or worse. Industrial & Acadmic research are just different animals, and inherently necessary to make different types of discoveries. Industrial research primarily exists to create products. Academic research exists to understand science. Both fields overlap quite a bit, and there is alot of cooperation between the two.

My point is that academic research is uniquely important for studying science that doesn’t yet have clear incentives. Academica is a good place to develop and evaluate new theories that may be important for industry & medicine in the future. And yes, academic research is not always cost-effective, but it often leads in directions that you don’t expect.

Let’s take the nuclear resonance for example. It’s orginally based on physics work started in the 1930’s. (At least 3 nobel prizes in physics have already been awarded). Afterwards, it became a fundamental tool for chemical analysis (NMR). It wasn’t until the 70’s that this device was thought to be used on tissue samples. Almost all of this is was academic research, although this has led to industrially produced NMR & MRI machines. Everyday, Industrial scientists are making NMR more & more powerful, and creating new programs that analyze complex systems.

Now let’s look at stem cells. There are a number of small stem-cell companies are coming together right now to capitalize on recent discoveries. That’s a good thing. However, (in my opinion at least), these companies are made possible because of pivotal discoveries in academic labs (& new technolgies devloped in industry) over the last 15 years. Without both sides, these companies don’t form.

2) I completely agree the nobel prizes in literature & peace are worthless, but I don’t beleive the same standard applies in medicine, physics and chemistry.

This years awards went to:

Medicine: For developing gene-therapy techniques on mice

Physics: For devloping the physics of hard-drive data storage

Chemistry: For demonstrating the presence/neccessity of surface catalysis on natural chemical processes.

I fail to see how these research programs have a “leftist agenda”. Please explain.

Furthermore, if there is a different scientific award that you find more important (or of better worth) let me know. I’m not attempting to criticize you, I’m just trying to figure out how you see the issue.