BTW, dj will no longer be joining us outside of being able to read what we post …

It is highly questionable whether Iraq has a democracy.

Oh, I see. So, because the system was not perfect, there is no democracy. So, does that mean that because of the “problems” that we had in the 2000 election, we do not have democracy? Since our system is not perfect and has encountered problems more than 200 years after it was enacted, does that mean we do not live in a democracy.

Once again, dj, you continue to state the obvious. Nobody said the elections were perfect, nobody said there were never going to be any problems, but it’s a starting point, get it?

Reaction to Iraqi Elections

The jubilant mayor of this beleaguered city called for the construction of a monument to George W. Bush.

Wow, he sure sounds excited that he could vote, FREELY, for the first time in his life.

Perhaps the most poignant statement of the day came from Fathiya Mohammed, an elderly woman who voted in the small town of Askan, south of Baghdad.

“This is democracy,” she said. “This is the first day I feel freedom.“

Ahhh, but what does she know, right dj? You know better!

Joe Lieberman said:

“But they failed, and the millions of Iraqis who bravely cast their votes today can claim a crucial victory for themselves and for their dreams of a new Iraq.”

If I recall correctly the same percentage of the population in Iraq that voted was similar to the percentage of population in the U.S. that voted too. Except those in Iraq had to brave snipers, car bombs, and suicide bombers and yet MILLIONS of them turned out to vote. Sounds pretty successful to me.

In the U.S. Congress, opinions predictably fell along partisan lines, with a few notable exceptions. Nebraska’s two U.S. senators expressed starkly different reactions to the election.

Of course they did because, like dj, there are people in the U.S. Congress who do not want us to win in Iraq.

Therefore, there are serious questions regarding whether Iraq has an established democracy.

Only to you, dj, only to you. You see, I was in Iraq when they went through the last round of elections. I was in a largely SUNNI area and I watched thousands of people streaming down the street to vote. I took pictures of the Iraqi policemen and soldiers who voted who were showing their ink stained fingers almost as if it were a trophy, something they were very proud of.

As I have said in every other post regarding Iraq, you only see the negative because it is what you WANT to see. Any positive changes, like the decline in violence, doesn’t bode well for liberals/democrats so now they must harp on something else. Quoting the editorial page of the NY Times really made me realize that you have no interest in seeing success in Iraq.

So just sit in the comfort of your own home, behind your computer, casting judgment on a land, and people, thousands of miles away from you. It is, apparently, what you do best.

Interestingly enough, I found this website that was also talking about the Iraqi elections. It made alot of the same points that dj made.

Iraqi elections deception

It was found at http://www.marxist.com.

Quite telling, wouldn’t you say?

Also, I’m not sure what your posts regarding Pakistan have to do with the discussion, unless you’re just trying to change the subject…….again.

Of course it’s hard. If it were easy, democracy would have broken out all over the world by now.

So he will post his quotes – all of which, you’ll notice, come from before the successes of the surge – and do his best to hijack the threads off topic. What you never will see is a constructive idea on how to succeed. That last is SOP for the anti-American left, though, so get used to it.

When are you finally going to understand that regular readers and commenters to this blog will never be persuaded by your negativity and downplaying of the important successes we’ve seen in Iraq over the last few months?

NC Cop: “dj, they already have democracy.”

… “largely to political pressure from the international community, the elections went ahead in January 2005, under a misguided “closed party list” system. Rather than choosing a specific candidate, voters across the country chose from among rival lists of candidates backed and organized by political parties. This system was entirely unsuitable given the security situation, the lack of accurate census figures, heavy intimidation from ethnic and religious militias, gross interventions by Iran, dismantled state institutions, and the use of religious symbols by parties to influence voters.”

Further,

…
“U.S. Ambassador to Iraq Ryan Crocker and Gen. David Petraeus, the top American commander in Iraq, declined to be interviewed for this story, but they issued a joint statement to CNN that reiterated that the country’s “fundamental democratic framework is in place” and that “the development of democratic institutions is being encouraged.”

“And, they said, they are helping Iraqi political leaders find ways “to share power and achieve legislative progress.”

“But Crocker and Petraeus conceded they are “now engaged in pursuing less lofty and ambitious goals than was the case at the outset.”

“Maj. Gen. Benjamin Mixon, commander of Task Force Lightning, also reflected a less lofty American goal for Iraq’s future.”

“”I would describe it as leaving an effective government behind that can provide services to its people, and security. It needs to be an effective and functioning government that is really a partner with the United States and the rest of the world in this fight against the terrorists,” said Mixon, who will not be perturbed if such goals are reached without democracy.”

Also on the Jan 2005 Iraq Elections: “Leading Sunni clerics declared on Wednesday that any government emerging from Iraq’s historic election would lack legitimacy because many people had boycotted a poll they said was tainted by a U.S.-led occupation.”

And:

“Iraq’s largest Sunni Arab political alliance said Tuesday that last week’s elections were marred by fraud, and it warned of further violence if preliminary results are allowed to stand.”

And:

“Iraq’s most influential Shiite politician said Wednesday that he would not allow a new government to “change the essence” of the country’s Constitution, despite a promise to Sunni Arabs that would open it to major revision.”

One month later the Shia Golden Dome was bombed.

Then…

“Iraq’s largest bloc of Sunni politicians suspended membership in the government Wednesday, a bid that appeared timed to deepen disenchantment in Washington with the Shiite prime minister’s faltering leadership.”

Therefore, there are serious questions regarding whether Iraq has an established democracy. The roots of any democracy lies in a people united in their desire to govern in accordance with a rule of law that guarantees the rights of everyone. Such people then create conditions in which elections can certify their desire by selecting those who will govern. This produces democracy.

What happened in Iraq wasn’t an expression of this desire; it may have seemed that way to you, but not to the Sunnis, and even Shia.

The Iraqi election was an American-brokered event like almost all events in Iraq are. To say the Iraqis have can exercise a voice in their government when they could barely walk to streets for over a year without getting killed is hardly related to anything defined as an established democracy where the rights of equality and liberty are said to be preserved in a constitution.

Let’s further assume that you’re not the neighborhood bully for the sake of discussion,

Can you describe w/o copying and pasting, why it’s so important for people bent on badmouthing successes, to sabotage the efforts on the WOT?…….What possible purpose is served with destroying their [the Iraqi's] chances at survival and growth?

An indignant White House press corps questioned U.S. integrity over why an Pulitzer Prize winning AP photographer, who happens to be an enemy “terrorist media operative”, was held by the U.S.

OK — Let’s use forest hunters’ garden metaphor to explain the problem of why these victories probably will not bring democracy.

News flash, dj, they already have democracy. They have had 3 successful and FREE elections. Democracy exists in Iraq, it’s keeping the democracy that we’re concerned with.

First, the seeds that were planted are presently ill-suited to exist in the same garden.

Perhaps, but that is for the Iraqi people to decide. I’m sure there are many politicians who shouldn’t be holding offices in Iraq, however, it is up to it’s people to get rid of them through elections, not us.

Third, the role of the US, as Mother Nature, in tending the garden– while highly admirable, is doomed to ultimate failure

In your opinion. I disagree with you. The fact that violence is declining is a good sign. I believe it was the dems, and people like you, who were screaming years ago that the violence would continue no matter what happened. I also remember the dems screaming that the surge won’t work. They were wrong on both those accounts.

Fourth, As I have stated here half a dozen times,
there has been NO EVIDENCE of political progress from the Maliki sprouts.

You have an amazing talent for stating the obvious. I don’t believe anyone has ever argues the contrary. Its just that some of us aren’t ready to turn tail and run like you.

Five, as many Sunni sprouts have decided to stop conflict for now, invest in Mother Natures’ assets (arms and training) and press their challenge to their fellow Shia sprouts; otherwise there could be another conflict.

I find it interesting that you attribute the decline in terrorist activity to a “choice” rather than the result of an effective campaign waged against insurgents. Perhaps you could provide “evidence” of that?

however, Maliki is in no political position to grant the reconciliation because he is as politically weaker now than even Bush is.

Bush is politically weak? That’s odd, because every time I turn around he’s constantly outsmarting the democrats.

So what to do???

This is the big question. People like you want to abandon them and shrug your shoulders saying “Oh well, we tried.” and leaving Iraq to collapse, destruction, and an eventual takeover by Iran. I want to continue to support this fledgling democracy and see it through until it succeeds. This would guarantee freedom to millions of people who had not had it before, strengthen our position in the Middle East, and give us a valuable ally in a hostile region.

Therefore, the garden should not be tended to beyond beyond late Summer, moving deep into Fall.

Please, dj, name another war that we’ve been involved in where we set a “time limit” to our assistance. I believe we still have troops in Bosnia, when are they coming home? They’ve been “occupiers” far longer than our troops in Iraq.

Everyone knows that the political situation is a problem, however, we see promise in the fact that the violence has stopped. Apparently, you see it as an opportunity to move on to another “It’s Bush’s fault!” argument.

You really got me laughing that I was involved in “deception”. Could it instead be you didn’t read it close enough?

–

OK — Let’s use forest hunters’ garden metaphor to explain the problem of why these victories probably will not bring democracy. It might fit well since it appears the US military is now switching metaphors to describe the persistent failure of Iraq’s feuding leaders to reach a power sharing deal to cement military gains.

As far back as three years ago slow political progress was explained away by each having different clocks: Washington’s political clock ticking too fast and Baghdads’ political clock ticking too slow; however, now the US military have started using the metaphor of a window of opportunity, bought by a 30,000-strong US troop “surge”, slowly closing.

So, for fun, let’s mix metaphors see what we come up with.

First, the seeds that were planted are presently ill-suited to exist in the same garden.

Second, for whatever reasons for the sprouts warring and uncooperative spirit, the sprouts have shown, in both action and word, a refusal to come together to form a constitutional preservation of the garden for the sake of all involved; they refuse to acknowledge the rights of the others’ “perfect freedom” (-john locke) to health (soil, sun and water), and possessions (oil) and are instead only reminded of historical and present trespass’ upon their own seed.

Third, the role of the US, as Mother Nature, in tending the garden– while highly admirable, is doomed to ultimate failure because, one, if the warring sprouts even came together the various Shia sprout militias and Shia Iraqi police and Army would denounce it; and two, Mother Nature in this tale has finite resources (money, public patience, equipment, and troops).

Fourth, As I have stated here half a dozen times,
there has been NO EVIDENCE of political progress from the Maliki sprouts. (please provide evidence for such a progress.)

Five, as many Sunni sprouts have decided to stop conflict for now, invest in Mother Natures’ assets (arms and training) and press their challenge to their fellow Shia sprouts; otherwise there could be another conflict.

Six, Hence, now the military talk of a window of opportunity closing slowly; in other words, dropping the metaphors, the Sunni have Awakened to peace, and to their enemy being AQI, and they are now interested in political reconciliation; however, Maliki is in no political position to grant the reconciliation because he is as politically weaker now than even Bush is. The parliament is now very opposed to a national reconciliation with the Sunni.

So what to do??? The Sunni are now waiting, waiting, growing, sunning, getting watered, armed, trained, backed by the US, but the government shows no significant actions and gives only words of weak tea to the Sunnis to remain patient. And all the while, the sunni wait … while the Shia now even start to brace for the coming conflict.

Therefore, the garden should not be tended to beyond beyond late Summer, moving deep into Fall. The Sunni sprouts want theirs, the Shia sprouts are resistant. But a frost is coming and therefore the widow of opportunity for governmental preservation is closing.