Yeah. I didn’t get that far in my reading…. Sorry

I will always no matter how punitive the government gets try to succeed, save and do the right thing. But it sure is upsetting to see people who don’t save, have more toys than I and consume more (therefore adding more CO2 to the atmosphere) vote for more for themselves in the future at the expense of everyone else… not realizing that government administrative costs and a distortion to the market place occurs at the same time.

Capitalism defined is the people choosing who gets what resources.

Socialism is the government choosing who gets what resources.

Yes, America has a mixture because the government chooses in a lot of sectors who gets what resources but it is at the expense of the market place and efficiency (cost). I can’t remember the town but there is a town in New Jersey who for years had bad water until they privatized the water system to a company. Costs are lower, the water is cleaner and the residents are happier. If the company doesn’t do the job right they can be held accountable. How do you hold the government accountable???? The people will generally try to do the right thing. Companies are entities controlled by people and yes there are some bad apples. But remember this…. taxes on companies are essentially passed on to the people. ONLY PEOPLE PAY TAXES…. ENTITIES/Companies only pass costs to the consumers/people..

Class warfare helps nobody. Able bodied people need to learn a new code of ethics for a better future.

And I’m no leftist. I’m a Green Party guy that’s a social conservative.

The paragraph where I talked about leftist values was aimed at the Obamas and others on the left, not at you, but I didn’t make that clear at all. My apologies, T-Steel.

Nothing wrong with rent. My wife and I are renting a house. Yes we COULD (uhh I think) buy but seeing how the market is, have decided to defer. One of the best damn decisions this former jock has made.

Funny how my priorities while earning $10,000 per year allowed me the option of going to community college. Funny how even today I don’t have an HDTV while friends who have less income do. My 10 year old minivan is kept up well and will serve me just fine for years to come. Whatev T!!

Chill Baklava. I already said earlier that y’all gave me alot to think about which basically means I concede. You win, I process. We all get along.

So the normal safeguards against bad credit were circumvented. And now the bad credit will have to work its way through the market – that is, reality wins as it always does, despite wishful government meddling.

YES. YES. YES. THAT’s WHAT I DID !!!

Tsteel wrote, “And a large number of dropouts aren’t due to grades but finances.

Funny how my priorities while earning $10,000 per year allowed me the option of going to community college. Funny how even today I don’t have an HDTV while friends who have less income do. My 10 year old minivan is kept up well and will serve me just fine for years to come. Whatev T!!

You or nobody else is entitled to take from me because you or anybody else has different priorities in life.

Personal responsibility is not a way of giving you an argument that we shouldn’t have a safety net for those who are non-able bodied or elderly.

Stupid should hurt though. People will only make wiser decisions when the government lets stupid hurt.

This housing situation for example is a result of stupidity. People having extra low payments because they got into more house than the could afford using a low introductory variable rate that paid only interest (not principle) and when rates rose so did their payment that they can no longer afford.

Wise americans are supposed to pay for stupid americans????

Go back to paying rent for an apartment is what I say….

Don’t take from me and leave me alone and the market forces will correct itself and america will be better off in the LONG term for it.

The bottom line is, if you want to advance, and you’re willing to work hard, you can. And you can do it without demanding a handout.

And with that, I have nothing more to say.

The bottom line is, if you want to advance, and you’re willing to work hard, you can. And you can do it without demanding a handout.

But I’ll guarantee you this, T-Steel: anyone who grinds it out that way has an appreciation for that degree that no kid who spent four years freeloading on the taxpayer will ever be able to understand.

And I’m no leftist. I’m a Green Party guy that’s a social conservative. I do appreciate the civil tone in everyone’s reply to me. And I have to admit, you all have given me more to think about.

You could get a good engineering degree for $700 a semester back in the 1980s.

The CUNY system has enabled waves of Jewish, Italian, Indian, Asian, and African immigrants to make it into the middle class. There are similar opportunities in other communities.

I had a classmate from Senegal – he was working two jobs (security guard and something else), living 2-3 to a room in a rented flat in Brooklyn, and sending money home while going to school and saving for a car.

Another guy from Nigeria had a 6 year plan that started with remedial and math courses in a “community college” that allowed him to transfer to engineering.

(Later in life I worked with a guy from Guyana who got an “engineering technician” degree, and completed a full engineering bachelor’s degree at night while working.)

When we’d split up into groups for laboratory work, the African immigrants would always choose to work with Asian or white students. Never with the American blacks.

One day we asked the Senegalese guy why. The answer:

“Those guys don’t want to work hard, they think it’s all coming to them.”

And in fact some of the American blacks were only in the class because of affirmative action programs, and eventually failed out. Some of them got a clue and went to “community colleges” to start learning what they should have learned in high school. But most of them couldn’t shake the sense of entitlement and get to work.

So what happens to those who work their butts off in high school, receive a scholarship (not nearly enough), but families don’t have nearly the money to go to college? Do they settle for community college? And what if they don’t have the $$$ to make that work while working full-time, etc.

Come on T-Steel, you know better than that. There are all kinds of options without demanding that taxpayers work long hours to foot the bill for someone else’s education. I know. That’s how I earned all my degrees. The only government assistance I received was the GI Bill, and that was compensation for giving up four years of my life when America was involved in a little firefight in southeast Asia.

It’s not that difficult. If you can’t afford the cost of college (and I agree with you that the cost is insane), you take it piecemeal. Would you like to show me where it is written that anyone has the right to finish college in exactly four years, partying and living on campus, at the most exclusive school he can find – and all the time sending the taxpayer the bill for it?

So if your lot in life is high academic achievement without the finances to build upon that, what do they do?

Don’t talk to me about high achievement and no finances. I can play “Can You Top This” on that subject with the best of them.

But to answer your question, how about working your way through? Any university worthy of the name has evening classes. I worked all day and then took 2 or 3 courses per semester at nights. And don’t look down your nose at some of those community colleges. Some of that work is transferrable for credit at 4-year schools.

The one thing I never did was feel sorry for myself and imagine that somehow, somewhere, it was the responsibility of someone like Baklava to pay my way. Aside from the GI Bill, and some limited education reimbursement from employers, every penny came out of my own pocket.

Does it take a lot longer? Damn right it does.

Does it mean you have to do without some luxuries for a while? Well, duh…

Does it mean your social life is limited? No question.

But I’ll guarantee you this, T-Steel: anyone who grinds it out that way has an appreciation for that degree that no kid who spent four years freeloading on the taxpayer will ever be able to understand.

So if you’re finding the finances tight trying to get three kids through college, let them begin to stand on their own. Combining work and school is NOT a disgrace. Baklava’s right: there’s an element of personal responsibility here.

But then, taking responsibility for one’s own choices, hard work, and self-reliance aren’t qualities the left values very much today, are they?

Look, I’m no “gouge the American taxpayer type”. But personal responsibilities has limits for a sizable amount of Americans. You take it upon yourself to take control of your life and not to “pull from the system”. But then you lose a job, get sick, etc, and your in a tailspin. There should be some government assistance to ASSIST you when circumstances warrant it.

Agreed that the cost of higher education is ridiculous to the extreme. I don’t know what how much more my wife and I can save for our three children to go to college without affecting our present financial stability and ability to work. Already got rid of one car and scaled things to the bare minimum but we know it won’t be enough. So what’s wrong with counting on the government to assist my wife and I with our children’s higher education goals (especially if they keep on the path of high academic achievement) when we have hit the proverbial wall in saving?

Because there are those who sacrifice, save, work and pay for their own education. As they work they are taxed to pay for others who don’t sacrifice. As they save they are taxed on dividends and told they can’t get benefits that those who didn’t save are offered….

Tsteel. It’s about PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. Taking from those who produce to pay for those who don’t is not a way to build a great nation. It’s a sure fire way to bring down a nation. Little by little with each and every one of the HUNDREDS of government programs that do this slothfulness is subsidized and hard work is punished.

When I was married and my wife CHOSE to stay home, we sacrificed with one less income, did not have new cars, got a house that was less than friends of ours. Friends who had two jobs, a new SUV and a new car, and they were liberals who fomented about the government not providing their kids daycare….. HELLO TSTEEL ! Where does that money come from??? FROM US THE TAXPAYERS!!

Instead of funneling money from our paychecks through the government with ADMINISTRATIVE COSTS…. to pay for people who are living differently and with more consumerism…. we should tell people to live with good decisions and keep more of the money from their own paychecks.

T Steel with craziness said, “So I guess every conservative don’t apply for school loans.”

Loans are paid back by the person who took out the loan. As this country’s federal and state’s governments shell out SOOOO much money for grants (not loans) and other funding for higher education costing taxpayers tooo much money, college prices have gone up and up because the market place is less and less at work. When you take away the market place costs are out of wack. It has happened in the overregulated health care industry and with higher education.

It’s become more and more clear everytime we listen to either Mrs. Obama or the man she claims can “heal this nation” that the both of them think that it’s ok to live beyond your means because Big Government will and should always be there to pay for what you can’t, like your college education, your healthcare, childcare, etc. Personal responsiblity be damned.

Huh? Ok I’ll give ya the “elitist” angle since Senator Obama is definitely Talented Tenth material. But what’s wrong with government assisting you in educating yourself. So I guess every conservative don’t apply for school loans. C’mon. I had a combination of an athletic (football) scholarship (4-years offensive tackle, in the trenches is THE LIFE) and Stafford Loans. Got my degree and did something with it. As far as living beyond their means, uh, that’s the American Way for many Americans. My dumb ass did that for a few years until I almost crashed and burned. Frugal for the win these days. So I really don’t think much about that point.

As for the Oprah issue, all I can say is OH WELL. She endorsed a black man without much history trying to become the first black POTUS. As the scrutiny intensifies on Senator Obama, she’s going to feel it too. But she’s a millionaire a hundred times over so she be alright.

By the way, I’m back in the Green Party. I support Obama in as far as I’m black and he’s black and I wish him the best. But he’s proven to be the same ol’ politician and I don’t like those. Now I’m just trying to run Cynthia McKinney out the party! YUCK!