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43 Responses to "Illegal immigration – yes, it’s a problem"

tommy in nyc says:

March 27, 2006 at 9:17 am

This is a complex issue. For starters coming from the party that cherishes the “nuclear family” you are proposing legislation that will break them apart. That’s not an easy sell in the Bible Belt. Also it unfairly treats the aliens who have paid into the Social Security system under fraudulent means while true but basically takes their contributions to American society and then deports them. That doesn’t sound very American to me. Now it is also true that legal immigrants who have followed the system are going to feel slighted by following the rules while rewarding law-breakers. I understand that point also and it is a valid argument. Personally I just think this nation needs to create a DMZ like border with Mexico. People are starving to death in N Korea but all the refugees head north towards China not to S Korea because of this simple fact. And I also would give amnesty to everyone who made to America. That reason is simple because it is not fair to expect state and local police forces to solve an issue that is the responsibiltiy of the Feds. As I first stated this is a complex issue with no easy amswers.
CB says:

March 27, 2006 at 9:25 am

The solution is to tax employers that use new immigrants more heavily. Adjust the tax with a point system. ie. People working in the U.S. legally for years get more points. People with families legally in the U.S. get more points.

Then you can give all the illegals new immigrant status (but with zero points). Some will stay, but many will have to move back if they have to compete for Americans for jobs with an added handicap.

Building a wall is a stupid solution that won’t work.
PCD says:

March 27, 2006 at 9:52 am

I have a far more simple solution,…, ANNEX MEXICO!
steve says:

March 27, 2006 at 10:26 am

Any CEO or business owner who has on their payroll an undocumented worker should be charged with a felony and fined $100,000 for each worker without papers that has been hired. The CEO or business owner should be charged and fined not the corporation or business. If no one hires them, they will not come. Peace
Church and State says:

March 27, 2006 at 10:44 am

If Scalia Should Have to Recuse Himself, Then…

… Justice Ginsberg would have to recuse herself from the next abortion case. In the upcoming issue of Newsweek the question is raised on whether Justice Scalia should recuse himself from the upcoming case
PCD says:

March 27, 2006 at 11:28 am

steve(FN) what about forged papers the illegals use? Your simplistic, get the rich CEO nostrums are rather myopic when you don’t start with closing the borders, shipping out the illegals already here, and prosecuting and punishing the people who aided and abetted their staying here. That last point will cause a lot of Democrats to be rounded up.
tommy in nyc says:

March 27, 2006 at 11:33 am

:((:((:((:((:((:((:((:((:(( It’s kind of sad that folks truly try to score political points on a subject like this. We are talking about folks looking to better the lives of their families. think it is a shame.
Conservative Outpost says:

March 27, 2006 at 11:38 am

Rally for “illegal alien rights”

In case you missed it, advocates of illegal aliens held rallies in several US cities over the weekend, the largest being in, of course, L.A.More than 500,000 immigration rights advocates marched in downtown Los Angeles yesterday, demanding that Congre…
Purple Avenger says:

March 27, 2006 at 11:39 am

My grandparents came through Ellis island and processed in legally in the late 1800’s.

What makes this batch any different than the millions who did it by the book previously?
cbhowell says:

March 27, 2006 at 11:44 am

I agree w/tommy. Haven’t we all gotten high and mighty…none of us originated here and I would venture a guess that very few of our ancestors arrived legally. The major problem with this deal is synomous with every other thing our government gets its grubby hands on….bureaucracy. Too many unneccessary rules and regulations that are too confusing, intimidating, and EXPENSIVE.
bostonBC says:

March 27, 2006 at 12:04 pm

PCD – actually fining and or jailing heads of companies that knowingly employ illegal aliens makes a lot of sense to me. Part of the idiocy of the current setup is the government has a system in place to detect fraudulent papers (SSN’s) but does not REQUIRE companies to use it. If we simply required that companies make a 30-second check before hiring someone and if they knowingly hire someone who is here illegally â€“ fine them, things would get a little better.

To me it’s about enforcing the current laws. The government has not been doing this as a gift to big business to keep their labor costs low. Those on the left who care about living wages should applaud this attempt to get the government to do something about this issue.

Simple economics 101 â€“ the more people willing to do the work, the lower the wages. Pay US citizens a decent wage and you won’t have 11 million illegal immigrants in this country.

tommy in nyc – Keep the current system in place and we will all be in a race to the bottom as there are about 4.5+ billion other people in this world who would probably like to be in America and make more money and have a better standard of living.

If anyone thinks that a â€˜better-educated’ US citizen will be able to compete against that onslaught you should have your head examined. Our nation can’t absorb all the people in the world that want a better life for themselves. It’s lunacy to do so at the expense of our own citizens. You want to help others who are less fortunate â€“ great â€“ send them a check or donate your time to helping them â€“ DON’T GIVE THEM MY JOB.

We’re not just talking about migrant workers â€“ the moronic Bushie proposals are set to increase legal immigration of all job types about a million a year. With just a couple hundred thousand â€˜new’ jobs being created in this horribly anemic economy â€“ how long will it take for you to be replaced by that â€˜nice new immigrant’?

Hope you all enjoyed middle class because we’re heading back to the days of slave labor thanks to the new â€˜global economy’ and the putrid efforts of most of our elected leaders who appear to be willing to do anything â€“ including destroying the economic security of US citizens to get a few more corporate dollars.
Big Bang Hunter says:

March 27, 2006 at 12:06 pm

“They have kicked the sleeping giant. It’s the beginning of a massive immigrant civil rights struggle.”

– So once again we watch as the goal posts get moved. Now suddenly anyone who can make it across the border assumes the mantle of “civil rights”, including everyone in the world, citizen or non-citizen.

– We are allowing others to define “human rights” as “civil rights”, and so it goes.

– Leaving aside the question of just how far we should go in extending Constitutional rights to all comers, what does it say to all the people that have played by the legal rules of our laws as a sovereign nation, and gone through the proper steps for legal residence and citizenship.

– Are we to just decide to ignore the laws and civil basis of our country, and throw open the doors to mass immigration?

– Do we have any rights as a country to safeguard and protect our sovereignty, or is America, and we as Americans, now expected to be the worlds “keeper”, ignoring our own security, and the stability of our society in general.

– Bang **==
PCD says:

March 27, 2006 at 1:01 pm

tommy, you are trying to score political points here. So, kick yourself to start with.
Jim M says:

March 27, 2006 at 1:04 pm

These are some of the people with the mind set of a “Living Constitution” so it can be changed to fit what the so called masses want. That is why liberals refer to our country as a Democracy which is nothing more than mob rule; we are a Constitutional Republic of Laws. The people that enter the US illegally then stay here illegally and work here illegally do not respect our sovereignty or the laws in this country. Why should someone that enters this country legally waiting months or years be put on the same level as those that enter illegally? All most anyone is welcome to become an American if you go through the procedures and laws of this country and there are a lot of people from around the world that are right now following protocol to enter the US legally. A wall has worked well for Israel in curbing the Palestinians from carrying out suicide bombings. Yes a wall would be expensive but look at the cost to the taxpayers now in the form of welfare, our schools, hospitals and crime. With this thinking we should let anyone cross our southern boarder without any type of back ground check and if you touch your toes on US soil you are now an American. I don’t know of any other country in the world that would allow this type of immigration.
😕
Baklava says:

March 27, 2006 at 2:04 pm

Tommy wrote, “Personally I just think this nation needs to create a DMZ like border with Mexico.

You can’t do that. There are Caterpillar and Ford factories (as examples of the 100’s of companies moving goods across the border as legitimate trade) and many people who travel there and back legitimately. Legitimate moving of goods and people cannot be discontinued with such a FLAWED solution.

I for one applaud the comprehensive approach of the Congress trying to finally tackle the issue. There are many people that will criticize various aspects of the bill but there is an over riding need to have a comprehensive approach to the problem taken. You can’t just target business owners as the solution. The solution needs to deal with employers of illegal immigrants but also tackle other ways of dealing with the problem. Democrats like Alan Colmes who sound like a broken record and turn this debate about employers only are not understanding the largeness of the problem.

Sure people are coming here to better their lives.

But they need to do so legally. This country allows more legal immigrants than all other countries combined so why must we also allow illegal immigration? We shouldn’t. No other country that I know of is as lax as we are with enforcing it’s laws. The laws need to be followed whether you just want to better your family’s life or not.

Simply stating the people are hard working and want to better their family’s life is no argument whatsoever you see.

17% of the federal prison population is illegal immigrants. Therefore not ALL of the people coming here just want to better their lives. Some have come here and committed federal felonies. This population in prison costs money. Lots of money.

Many of the hospitals near the border have had to close (fact) due to their budget problems dealing with illegal immigrants who have no money to pay for the services or no insurance. How is this helpful to anyone in these communities?

What liberals with their big hearts fail to understand is that there are consequences/results to the policies they propose. The result is more misery/poor/death/etc. Then liberals accuse conservatives of being heartless. Far from the truth. We want to resolve issues, help Americans prosper, want the poor to succeed, want the safety net to not be diluted by able-bodied people removing resources for non-able bodied people.

Illegal immigration should not be allowed whatsoever. We open our hearts and arms to those million that come here legally every year.
tommy in nyc says:

March 27, 2006 at 2:16 pm

Well a true DMZ solution won’t work that’s true but to suggest a somewhat smaller verision of all wall or a clearing of residents on say 1mile each way only allowing for a responsible transfer of commerce is possible. Man if I had 3 kids in tijuana and couldn’t support them in Mexico you can bet your ass I’d jump the border. Who wouldn’t. And Mexico isn’t going to change for the better in my lifetime that i guarantee.
Baklava says:

March 27, 2006 at 2:28 pm

So true. But the fact that Mexico doesn’t offer much opportunity to it’s citizens is a problem that may people of many countries suffer. It just so happens that Mexico is on our border.

Does that necessitate allowing illegal immigrants? No. We are generous. We can continue to be generous.

A fence/wall/patch of land or whatever is part of the comprehensive approach and what I was trying to say is that the problem should be looked at as needing a comprehensive approach with lots of solutions. Just pushing for a DMZ or just pushing for punishing employers is not the answer. The answer should be many things/solutions.

Just my opinion.
steve says:

March 27, 2006 at 3:16 pm

It’s time to cut up the Statue of Liberty into small chunks and haul it to the dump. No need anymore for “Give me your poor, your huddled masses”, because the nativists want to slam the doors shut. Peace
Baklava says:

March 27, 2006 at 3:34 pm

Steve wrote, “No need anymore for “Give me your poor, your huddled masses”,

And he wrote that without recognition of almost everyone saying we welcome more legal immigrants than all other countries combined. That statue doesn’t mean we have to allow illegal immigration as well.

Poor argument tactic.
Raj says:

March 27, 2006 at 4:42 pm

“if the GOP loses over standing on principle on the issue of illegal immigration, so be it.” – heh, if any political party had that much integrity, it wouldn’t be a political party anymore.
JAH says:

March 27, 2006 at 4:56 pm

For those of you who support illiegal immigration, if your house is ever broken into please do not call the police. The crook is probably trying to obtain a better life for him and his family.

In fact if someone does break in maybe they should decide to stay in your house, eat your food, use your stuff, etc. I mean you have so much and they have nothing.

By the way if anyone in your family objects, you need to call them racist, anticrook, whatever it takes to make sure that thier concerns are not addressed because obviously they have no compassion.

So what if this person broke the law in the first place breaking into your house they are there now and should be allowed to stay.

Also if they happen to hurt or kill a member of your family make sure that you don’t turn them in because after all they are trying to make a better life for themselves.
CZ says:

March 27, 2006 at 5:03 pm

Terrorism was ignored until it cost the lives of innocent Americans, many of them were legal imigrants working in the WTC.

Illegal imigration must be dealt with now. It’s almost too late, but better late than Clinton.

Fine the companies that hire them. Great. Deport the ones who came illegaly. Great. Stop the ones walking in without even bothering to sign the guestbook, even better.

Whatever it takes.=;
Raj says:

March 27, 2006 at 5:53 pm

JAH, like all criminals are illegals huh? How do you come up with such an asinine argument? Illegal immigration should be stopped eventually but if you wanna argue against it – just try something better than a high-school drop-out mindset.
sanity says:

March 27, 2006 at 6:51 pm

RAj he was using it as a comparison.

Re-read it again.

He is making the comparison that both are illegal activities, the thief/crook breaks the law, but when an illegal imigrant does it by coming into the US illegally and not by the proper LEGAL way, then that person is just as guilty of breaking the Law than the thief/crook is.

Trouble is, we want to give the illegal activities of the immigrants that come in illegally a pass or change the law to make it not illegal – while we don’t hols the same standard for the same thief/crook who thinks coming into your house to take your things because you have better or more than he does.

We have a legal process of entry into the US, it helps to keep unwanted criminals out and screens unhealthy people, so that we do not allow in disease that would cause epidemics.

What illegals do are bypassing these screenings, and we get criminal gangs who threaten law abiding americans:

WASHINGTON – Some 375 gang members have been arrested in 24 states and the District of Columbia over the past two weeks as part of a yearlong operation targeting gangs with criminal immigrant members, the Homeland Security Department said Friday.

The arrests bring to 2,388 the number of gang members apprehended through Operation Community Shield, which combines local law enforcement with federal immigration forces. Of those arrested, 922 were members of Mara Salvatrucha gangs, which have ties to Central America.

Link

Come visit a victims website of criminal ILLEGAL immigrants that came in the US illegally:

There is an enormous number of Americans who have been harmed by the criminals who pass through the nation’s open borders. For that reason, this section can only provide a symbolic tribute to the many unnamed victims who have been killed, raped, robbed, crippled and otherwise personally violated.

It is particularly shocking that even in post-911 America, the government still refuses to protect the people in the most basic ways from the world’s terrorists and criminals who enter at will to do as they please. The borders remain a sieve while the human carnage from crime perpetrated from illegal aliens continues to mount. In another stunner of INS malfeasance, the agency often cannot even manage to deport dangerous criminal aliens when they reach the ends of their prison terms.

Link

I am in complete support of any immigrant who comes through tothe US LEGALLY, puts themselves through the process like they should. I hope they find the opportunities in the US they so desire.

BUT on the other hand, if they come into the US illegally, they bypass our screening of criminal background checks and medical screening, I have no sympathy for them at all, nor to the businesses that would hire these people under the table.

You want to whine and moan about Capitalism, well there is you worst basic feature there, a company or business that hires illegal immigrants before a legal US citizen. Don’t like outsourcing? What happens when outsourcing out jobs from American hands to immigrants that are here illegally, who get paid under the table.

How about all these hypocrites that rail against Walmart and the wages they pay, look at this because they are illegal immigrants they are paid under the table and usually alot less than minimum wages (which also is illegal).

Where is the outcry and the rage on this?

Tell me the support you feel for hte criminal gangs that roam our streets thanks to coming across the border illegally.

It is regrettable, because three main factors identified by analysts to account for the appalling growth in alien criminal gang activity in this country all arise from the failure of Congress, over more than a generation, to control illegal immigration.

The failure by Congress to require and support effect border control and interior enforcement is the first cause. Alien smuggling has allowed the immigrant enclaves in which these gangs thrive to expand to the point that local governments have been intimidated from taking any actions that might be misrepresented as ethnic profiling. As a result, many jurisdictions have tied the hands of their law enforcement agencies with sanctuary policies and â€˜don’t ask, don’t tell’ restrictions. This has produced a “race to the bottom” in public safety terms. Immigrants and their U.S. citizen ethnic relatives are the most frequent victims of alien street gangs, as residents see gang members demonstrate their ruthlessness and retaliatory power without fear of permanent removal from the United States.

The willingness of Congress, beginning in the 1970s, to use refugee policy as an expedient way to deal with the economic upheavals that followed our intervention in Third World insurgencies, notably in Central America, is a second cause. Illegal aliens from El Salvador introduced terrorist-style brutality to the turf wars of domestic street gangs. With Temporary Protected Status, they organized and expanded violent criminal networks nationwide.

The third factor is the blowback from the failure of Congress to protect the American workplace from illegal employment. Victor Davis Hansen described the phenomenon in California in his acclaimed study Mexifornia. The children of the illegal aliens who “do jobs Americans won’t do” come to despise the rule of law and American culture after seeing how it ground down their parents, and make gang membership a rational career choice. Indeed, the need to control unauthorized employment was stressed by all but one of the witnesses at the subcommittee’s hearing on this topic last week on June 21.

Alien Gang Removal Act of 2005 Testimony

Gangs like MS-13 that are here illegally:

A ruthless street gang with a reputation for cutting off rivals’ fingers and carving up snitches with machetes appears to have a foothold here. They are the Mara Salvatruchas, or MS-13, and a week ago, Hillsborough County deputies arrested three members in a northwest county neighborhood after they tried to persuade a Honduran man to “join us or die,” Sgt. Scott Wellinger said.

…..

MS-13 made national headlines in recent years when accused of gruesome acts. In Charlotte, N.C., the gang is suspected in 18 killings since 2000. Machete attacks in Virginia that left victims fingerless prompted lawmakers in 2004 to add the long blades to a list of weapons that cannot be concealed legally. And in May of this year, two MS-13 members were convicted in Alexandria, Va., of hacking to death a pregnant teen in 2003 after she was exposed as a federal informant.

The Mara Salvatruchas is also blamed for international crimes, including gunning down 28 Honduran women and children inside a bus at Christmastime. Honduran officials called the act retaliation for their government’s crackdown on gang activities. Laws there and in El Salvador make it illegal to belong to a gang or to have gang tattoos.

In an unprecedented move of its own, the Federal Bureau of Investigation earlier this year announced a new multiagency task force dedicated to wiping out the MS-13. Its first endeavor, Operation Community Shield, spent two weeks in July hunting down and arresting 582 suspected gang members across the nation.

Link

Again, if your an immigrant who loooks for a better life for themselves, we welcome you IF you come through legally. We have a process of screening that is set up so we don’t allow criminal elements in to the US or diseases that would be detrimental to the US citizens. Coming through illegally bypasses this process and we get gangs and diseases that come through that normally would not be here.

I am not saying all illegal imigrants are criminals and disease ridden, but they come across in the same manner in which these same elements do, so in dealing with the criminal and disease, we have to deal with the normal illegal immigrants that just want a better life also.
JAH says:

March 27, 2006 at 6:57 pm

Yes Raj they are criminals, they are ILLEGAL immigrants they broke the law to get here. What part of that do you not understand. Look I am for legal immigration but these people BROKE the law. They are a slap in the face to those who want to come here legally and wait for years for that privilige. There is a law against coming across the border and it needs to be enforced. And also if you cannot give a coherent argument back to me do not resort to calling me names. If you have to do that your arguments must be weak.

Oh and one more thing in my example. If he wants to move his family into your house and then make you pay for his kids education you have to let him.
benning says:

March 27, 2006 at 7:12 pm

Laws are already in place. Let’s demand that they be followed, and those who break those laws prosecuted. Evry one of ’em.

PCD, we should have kept what we won in the Mexican-American War. We’d have none of these problems, then. Or would we? *sigh*

Let’s enforce the damn laws! For a change!
steve says:

March 27, 2006 at 7:41 pm

If they aren’t hired they will not come. Jail and fine the corporations and companies who hire illegal workers. Peace
JAH says:

March 27, 2006 at 8:35 pm

Sanity,

Thanks for the backup and great links also I had not seen some of them. I don’t think he understood I was using an analogy. Most immigrants come here for a better life and I encourage and applaud that, but like my grandparents, they have to come legally. If a person wants to come to this country, work hard and follow our laws then more power to them, but they must follow our laws.

We as a nation have a right to vet who comes our country, to keep potential hardened criminals out. Just as you have a right to keep out those who you do not want in your house. Another problem is that those who come here illegally do not have the proper immunizatons and can potentially carry diseases that have been wiped out or nearly wiped out in this country.

We need a reasoned, responsible to this problem. The problem is that from the demonstrations I saw yesterday a reasoned response is going to be difficult.

I don’t think those on the side of letting illegal immigration understand that illegals also depress wages. Now I am not an economist, I am engineer, but is seems to me that if an employer can pay someone under the table less than minimum wage where is the insentive to hire those that you have to pay at least minimum wage. This is where we must crack down on the employers also.

In the end we have to address this problem, it cannot go on as it is.
Melissa In Texas says:

March 27, 2006 at 9:46 pm

My office assistant, whom I adore, is a LEGAL immigrant, from Mexico that feels much the same way that many of us do. She was able to vote in the US for the first time in this last presidential election and was so excited. She spoke to me at length about the long process to become a legal resident in the US – and how much it meant for her to be a PART of this country. It was so awesome to watch. This is a lady that has fully assimilated into the American lifestyle and loves it!
She is wary of some of the hispanics that come into our offices, largely due to the fact that so many of their identification cards are counterfeit.
Unfortunately, the Mexican Conselar identification cards that many illegals use to obtain their legal status in the US are bogus.
These things are bought and sold freely along the borders. SHE is the one that told me about the ID cards, SHE is the one that told me that so many of the illegals here obtain bogus identification cards and vote, again, illegally! Hmmm, guess which party they tend to vote for???
We have discussed the fact that many of the Mexicans come to this country and largely due to the fact that they are making so much more money than they could in Mexico, end up doing things that they would not dream of doing in Mexico. We are talking about becoming gang members, becoming coyotes, transporting and selling drugs.
She believes that making the money here is too much for many of them.
I have learned so much about the Mexican culture from her. She tries to work with other hispanics, to help them fully assimilate. It is truly a beautiful thing to watch!
As for those who prefer to stay foreigners and refuse to assimilate, send ’em on back to where they came from!
CB Howell says:

March 28, 2006 at 3:36 pm

Look, (having just scanned through the responses, so if I reiterate…sorry) this can be made incredibly simple. There are two primary reasons our friends to the south are coming across the border: (initially at least)

#1 to work for money
#2 to get money criminally

Everyone has to agree that those in the first category far far far outnumber those in the second. Additionally, whether you want to admit it or not, everybody knows that our economy REQUIRES the good cheap labor. Without it, our economy would tank.

So what needs to happen here, keep in mind best solutions are not always fair to everyone, is amnesty (ie. green cards) need to be issued to all illegals currently employed in the US (for some set period of time) and thier families.

Second, the US Govn’t should then make it known to all those central americans that intend on coming here to work, that we would love to have them, but with restrictions. ie, proof of employment, seasonal terms–meaning they would be expected to return home after the season if one existed in thier line of work…etc.

The workers would be free to go back and forth w/out worry to see their family. (This would stop people from sneaking everyone over in fear of getting popped on multiple border excursions)

This is basically what Bush is describing in his temp worker permit program…the only difference would be the amnesty part which would be necessary to avoid the cost (both economic and moral)of chasing these folks down.

The other nice benefit of this idea is that it would drastically cut the border patrol’s work load allowing them to focus on those who seek to come here persuing criminal intentions.
CB Howell says:

March 28, 2006 at 3:43 pm

One more thing.

Like drugs…as long as our market has a demand for this (labor), they will continue to come. And the more we marginalize them when they get here the less likely they will be to assimilate into our culture (like learn english…obey our laws…yada yada yada). This marginalization is what costs us the bucks, not the mexicans. Blaming employers is rediculous. Blaming anyone is rediculous. They’re here simply because our good economy dictates such and that can’t be changed. The only thing that can is dealing with thier presence in a way that is most economically beneficial to everyone involved.
Baklava says:

March 28, 2006 at 4:41 pm

You are leaving out the national security implications. Your argument is pre 9/11
sanity says:

March 28, 2006 at 4:53 pm

One thing, untie the hands of the local police so they can ask if people who commit crimes are US citizens or not.

Currently they are forbidden to ask if they are here illegally.

And, if they are found hte be here illeally and have committed a crime, allow them to contact INS and have them deported.

No need for extra money to be spent searching out illegal immigrants, but let law enforcement oficers who find illegals committing crimes allow them to remove these illegal immigrant criminals from the US and put them back into the country of origin they have come from.
Mahwah says:

March 28, 2006 at 5:29 pm

I’m all for legal immigration, but I have seen the effects of the onslaught of millions of illegals coming here from (mostly) Mexico, and feel that immediate and drastic measures must be taken if we are to preserve the sovereignty of our nation.

I live in the metro Phoenix area, and I have been here for going on twenty-five years. I am now getting ready to leave Arizona, as the crime rate in my town has skyrocketed, and the threat of crime is ever-present. I have some friends on the local police force, and they feel it is mostly due to the influx of illegal Mexicans settling here. Is every Mexican that comes here illegally responsible for the crime wave? Of course not. However, the fact is that over two-thirds of the prison inmates incarcerated in Arizona are illegal aliens. Many of the publicly-funded hospitals here in the State are being overwhelmed by illegals who arrive ready to give birth to ‘Anchor Babies’ and demand free service from the medical facilities because they know they can get it. This has caused many of the hospitals to operate in bancruptcy, their staff never knowing when their next paycheck will be their last. This is also a huge burden on the taxpayers and those who prefer to ‘pay their own way’ as the costs of healthcare for us has drastically increased to compensate for all the ‘freebies’ that are given out. The police here are overwhelmed with the task of dealing with the gang activity that is now present. We actually have armed guards at the entrances to the GROCERY stores that are around me due to constant robberies, and we are #1 in the nation for auto theft. Coincidence? I think not. Think I just happen to live in a ‘bad’ part of town? Think again. My home is in Tempe – yup – home of the AZ Cardinals and Arizona State University. Tempe was once considered the center of culture in the Valley, and a very desireable place to live. Now when I mention I live in Tempe, many shake their heads and say “Oh man, that place has gotten baaadd…”

My grandparents immigrated here legally, through Ellis Island. As a condition of immigration, they had to have a sponsor, enough cash to survive without being a burden on the community, and a job waiting for them. That was just to get off the boat, never mind being granted citizenship. Like many, many others before and after them, they learned English, and became citizens. My grandmother would tell me that her mother and friends would sit around and listen to her speak English after she had been here only a year – they marvelled at how beautifully she spoke it. She was only a child then, but felt it was important to immerse herself into the American culture. As new Americans, they never took a dime of welfare benefits, never used the ‘system’ to cost the taxpayers an extra penny. They were proud of that. They also never flew the Austrian flag outside of their home – but you better believe the United States flag was always present. They helped instill in me patriotism for this country, and respect for the rule of law.

I admire and respect all those that ‘earn’ their citizenship to this country, as it is those people and their children that make the best stewards of our nation. It is very telling to me that many of those marching in the anti-immigration reform rallies were displaying the flag of their country of choice – Mexico. Perhaps they should instead be marching to Vincente Fox’s office , and demanding that he keep his campaign promises and reform THEIR country, and make it a place worth living in. Maybe then the corruption that drives the poverty in Mexico will begin to abate.
Baklava says:

March 28, 2006 at 6:00 pm

Mahwah wrote, “I admire and respect all those that â€˜earn’ their citizenship to this country, as it is those people and their children that make the best stewards of our nation.”

Amen.

We are generous. We allow more legal immigrants into this country than all other countries combined and need to enforce our laws and provide for out national security. Being illegal and being paid under the table and/or using someone elses social security number to pay taxes and have earnings above the table isn’t helpful.
CB Howell says:

March 28, 2006 at 6:42 pm

Baklava said, “You are leaving out the national security implications. Your argument is pre 9/11”

National security implications are exactly what I meant when I said,

“The other nice benefit of this idea is that it would drastically cut the border patrol’s work load allowing them to focus on those who seek to come here persuing criminal intentions.”

:(( LIKE TERRORISM :((

Baklava, I don’t know where you’ve been for the last 4 1/2 years, but I’ve really seen a huge increase in port/border security given the billions upon billions of dollars we’ve spent to improve it…and it’s everything the border patrol can do not to get thier asses shot off. They’re streched too thin chasing the folks who just want to work.

It just blows me away. Is it just that because the government prints money, they’ll never run out? We can’t keep spending like we are….national security….what do you propose, the mexican “iron curtain” with barbed wire and land mines? With our economy in the crapper cause we’ve kicked out all our laborers and small businesses (70%of the job providers) going out of business right and left…who’s going to pay for your ‘national security’ then, baklava?

I would argue that in a general sense, doing any thing other than what I propose is a higher threat to our national security than anything coming across our southern border.

But hey, I guess if we go broke….we’ll cease to exist as a target for Islamo-faciscm…we’ll be just like mexico and no one will want anything to do with us.
Baklava says:

March 28, 2006 at 6:55 pm

CB asked, “what do you propose, the mexican “iron curtain” with barbed wire and land mines?”

Nope. I propose the opposite of you. If illegal immigrants can’t be employed or receive benefits they will find that they have to leave. Leaving will cost us less (referring to your printing money argument) because our hospitals, schools, jails will not be over utilized.

Your argument of marginalization is backwards. If people feel welcomed here they will be attracted even more. Amnesty and giving benefits and full citizenzhip quickly (after breaking the law) will attract more and more illegal immigrants. All of these people need care, benefits, education, health care, jailing, roads, etc. I’m sorry but we are generous. We allow more legal immigrants than all other countries comibined. That is good. Now we can take a stand for once and for all and really help the people who came illegally understand they need to go home.

A few deportations will do the trick also. We don’t need buses from Tijuany to Anchorage. We only need to START enforcing our laws and not doling out benefits before people realize they will not be rewarded for law breaking and will not be allowed to continue breaking the law. We need to know who is in this country. The national security implications are tremendous

CB made a false argument saying, “With our economy in the crapper cause we’ve kicked out all our laborers and small businesses (70%of the job providers) going out of business right and leftâ€¦who’s going to pay for your â€˜national security’ then, baklava?

You are behind in understanding the issue. Even Paul Krugman gets it. He sets you straight on the costs to the U.S. Badly sets you straight. So bad it hurts to watch.:((

CB wrote, “But hey, I guess if we go broke”

Paul Krugman thinks as I do that we have a higher chance going broke over the benefits and entitlements that’ll cost us to allow illegal immigration to exist. Not knowing who is here needs to be solved so that we spend less in homeland security. The way to know who is here is making it so that if you aren’t a citizen or with visa you will pretty much HAVE TO GO HOME to get money.
Baklava says:

March 28, 2006 at 7:00 pm

Here’s something else to understand which expounds on what I said here, “Leaving will cost us less (referring to your printing money argument) because our hospitals, schools, jails will not be over utilized.”

If the federal jails have 17% illegal immigrants, if our schools have 11 million illegal immigrants… the roads, the hospitals (health care), the education, etc. All those things require labor and services rendered. The illegal immigrants leaving makes it so less services/labor is needed. The American economy more or less needs as much labor as there is people. Your ridiculous argument suggests that we need more labor that there is people. As if what? We have the right to lay back and be waited on by slaves? No. This would be the OPPOSITE of what Paul Krugman believes. We do not deserve a slave class. To be humane as Paul Krugman rights we need to pay a living wage and they need to receive all benefits and entitlements and health care and the works. Working under the table and or with someone elses social security is not the way towards having a secure nation and one with enough funds to provide government services for everyone.
Baklava says:

March 28, 2006 at 7:13 pm

If 1 million out of the 11 million illegal immigrants are in our schools that is a cost of 8 Billion per year to educate if you use the figure of $8,000 per pupil which is about average.

If 100,000 of the federal prison population (estimate with no research on the actual prison population but knowing that 17% are illegal) then that is a cost of 3 Billion per year.

The roads.
The hospitals that have had to close.
The benefits that have to be doled out.

Just here in CA the WIC program gives out more than $600 million in benefits and do you want to know who receives 1/3rd of those benefits according to estimates? Why is that? Because if you are a mom with child under 5 and you are under 185% of poverty you can receive WIC benefits. You don’t even have to be under poverty level. You can be above it. This is 1 program/benefit out of a couple dozen I could name. It is a huge cost to US. It is also less services needed to render if we don’t need to provide services to the people who leave. Acting like they leaving will really have us scrambling for people to provide services is not very intelligent of an argument. You only need to provide as much services generally as there are people. Absent people don’t need services, shelter, food, health care, education, their car fixed, their teeth fixed, their hair cut, their food served, benefits doled out.

You would be wise to take that argument off the table.
steve says:

March 28, 2006 at 7:45 pm

NAFTA, exports American jobs overseas and corrupt and greedy capitalists hire undocumented workers which drives down the wages and benifits of the Americans who do have jobs. Throw a few CEO’s into jail. Begin with bush. Peace
Lorica says:

March 28, 2006 at 11:30 pm

The funny thing about NAFTA Steve is the 1st one is a Jimmy Carter initiative that Reagan was forced to sign by the Dem congress, and the 2nd NAFTA BJ signed. So what exactly is your point?? – Lorica
bostonBC says:

April 3, 2006 at 1:50 pm

Lorica – Steve’s point is very clear, NAFTA screwed over Americans. The fact that both the morons on the left and the rich on the right believe in it is scary.

It is this point that illustrates why we are in the current pickle on immigration.

The righties want cheap labor at any cost and the lefties seem to want to help everyone except current citizens.

Us regular Americans who try and keep our jobs in this insane ‘global’ economy are getting screwed by both the left and the right.

Time for a centrist party to form in the US like the new one in Israel. It would clean up if it actually gave a cr*p about Americans instead of wealthy corporations and illegals.
Baklava says:

April 3, 2006 at 2:06 pm

Boston BC,

No, Steve’s point isn’t clear. Please show us the text in NAFTA where “undocumented” workers are allowed to be hired.

Complete fabricication as his posts always are. Nothing truthful except that is what he “feels”.

I see Boston likes to generalize by saying, “The righties want cheap labor at any cost and the lefties seem to want to help everyone except current citizens“….

Businesses that hire illegals cannot be characterized as the “righties”. Businesses have generally donated to both parties and in ever increasing amounts as government gets larger. Why do businesses give to both parties as government gets larger? for favorable treatment as opposed to unfavorable treatment. I’m sorry you like the cliche’s. It’d be nice if facts were important.

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