Expose the Left has video here and here. Don’t miss it.
The AP write-up:
The funeral took on political overtones as former President Carter said of the Kings: “It was difficult for them then personally with the civil liberties of both husband and wife violated as they became the target of secret government wiretaps.” Later, he said that Hurricane Katrina showed that all are not yet equal in America.
And both Bush and his father winced as they sat behind the pulpit and heard the Rev. Joseph Lowery, who co-founded the Southern Christian Leadership Conference with Martin Luther King Jr., take several jabs at foreign and domestic policies.
“We know there were no weapons of mass destruction over there, but Coretta knew and we knew there are weapons of misdirection right down here,” Lowery said, complaining that were far too many in the U.S. are living in poverty and without health care insurance.
“For war, billions more, but no more for the poor,” Lowery continued, a take-off of a lyric from the song “A Time to Love” which drew a roaring standing ovation.
Bush’s father tried to defuse any political tension by joking that Lowery used to challenge him when he was president, too.
“I kept score in the Oval Office desk — Lowery 21, Bush 3,” former President George H.W. Bush said. “It wasn’t a fair fight.”
The audience showed where its allegiance lay when former President Clinton and his wife, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, came to the podium to wild cheers and a long standing ovation. He opened by saying that he was honored to be with the other former presidents. Someone in the crowd yelled out, “Future president!” in reference to his wife’s possible 2008 bid.
Kinda reminds you of this memorial service turned anti-Republican rally.
Shameful.
Hat tip: Stop The ACLU (who is on fire today)
Others commenting on this: Michelle Malkin, Iowa Voice, Riehl World View, Independent Conservative, GOP Bloggers, SoCalPundit, SusiePie, Sensible Mom, Oh How I Love Jesus
Just when you think the Left can’t possibly sink any lower… they up and surprise you with another classless, uncivil, dishonorable display.
Comment by CavalierX @ 2/7/2006 - 6:36 pm
Man, what is it with Democrats and funerals? First Ron Brown’s, then Paul Wellstone’s, and now this? Didn’t these people’s mamas ever teach them anything about how to behave in public? It’s particularly amazing when you see, time and time again, their actions costing them politically, they still just can’t help themselves. BDS is an ugly disease…
Comment by Severian @ 2/7/2006 - 7:06 pm
CavalierX says, “Just when you think the Left can’t possibly sink any lower… they up and surprise you with another classless, uncivil, dishonorable display.”
Oh I am not suprised when the Left sinks even lower, they hit bottom and the extreme libs say DIG!!!
A funeral is a time for remorse, of contemplation of the persons life, celebrating the life they lived. This is plain pathetic on the part of these people doing these bush-bashing during a funeral. Sickening.
No repsect for the grieving and dishonoring and disrespecting those that have passed on by politicizing a funeral.
Comment by sanity @ 2/7/2006 - 7:56 pm
do you guys even hear yourselves sometimes?
the very issues that were important to Coretta Scott King, that she spent her entire life working to promote, were brought up at her funeral? SHOCK!
it seems reasonable that people who knew and worked with Coretta Scott King (such as Rev. Lowery) don’t need other people to tell them what is or is not appropriate behavior at her funeral. i think there’s just a trace of irony that the very people running to point their shame-fingers at these disgraceful democrats are the very people who would be the first to toss aside Mrs King as a crazy moonbat, you know, cause of how she opposed the war in Iraq, advocated gay marriage, and was a vegan? i guess lucky for her she’s an icon, and gained legitimacy before that idiotic label was invented. it also seems like i’m not hearing any whining from the right about the presence of the lovely Fred Phelps protest clan. to pull a Malkin, “where’s the outrage?!?!??? CRICKETS. CHIRPING.”
anyway, i’m calling bullhockey on this lashout, cause the attempt to paint this as another example of how the democrats are exploiting tragedy for partisan political gain IS AN ATTEMPT BY REPUBLICANS TO EXPLOIT TRAGEDY FOR POLITICAL GAIN.
jeebus.
Comment by alexis rox @ 2/7/2006 - 8:22 pm
“it also seems like i’m not hearing any whining from the right about the presence of the lovely Fred Phelps protest clan. to pull a Malkin, “where’s the outrage?!?!??? CRICKETS. CHIRPING.””
Sister Toldjah 8/28/05:
A few readers and a commenter noted this story about the militant anti-gay activities of one Rev. Fred Phelps and members of his flock who have taken it upon themselves to protest against the gay lifestyle in the most shameful of ways:
I’ve got a message for you, Reverend Phelps: You’re despicable. Not just to America, but to Christianity as well. God did not and does not "hate gays." God loves everyone, including disagraceful human beings like you who take His name and attach it to your pathetic little ‘crusades.’ Remember "love the sinner, hate the sin?" You have a right to feel what you want, you have a right to say what you want, but your exercising that right at the funerals of our fallen soldiers (men and women who have died for you to enjoy that right) coming home from Iraq is unquestionably reprehensible in the purest sense of the word. As I have stated before, with freedom in this country comes responsibility and just because you have the right to say something, doesn’t make it right to say! It’s no wonder your ‘congregation’ is so small:
With moronic protests like the ones you initiate, it does give me some measure of satisfaction in knowing that your congregation is small, and not just small in terms of numbers, but small-minded as well. YOU, as a Christian, *know* that God loves all people, including gays, including adulterers, including people who stray from His teachings, etc. As a Christian, your responsiblity is to help spread the word of God and encourage people to turn to Him, to grow with Him, and accept Him into their hearts as their savior. His love is not limited to any color, sex, race, disability, or anything else. He may not be tolerant of sin but He is loving of the sinner. You should be ashamed for even daring to think you speak for God when you preach the hate that you do, and you express it the way you do. It’s a shame you even express it at all but even more shameful is you doing it during the funerals of our fallen men and women who deserve the be buried with the dignity and respect they deserve.
I am against gay marriage, and I support the Boy Scouts not allowing gay men to serve as Scout leaders. But I do NOT support the hate you are spewing, and I especially do NOT support the venues you have chosen to express it. You are a sick person, twisting the word of God to try and make it fit in with your narrow, perverted worldview, and the disrespect you show our fallen soldiers, as well as their family and friends is an unconscionable act. You do an extreme disservice to our fallen heroes, to America, to Christians, to conservatives, but most of all to God. You are not acting in His name nor mine, nor any other level-headed Christian in this country. This should be something that both liberals and conservatives in this country agree on.
Shame on you, Rev. Phelps.
—
Michelle Malkin posted about Phelps on 12/27/05. She had almost 20 trackbacks (I minused out a few spam posts to get my total from that trackback link) to that post.
What was that you were saying again about “crickets chirping”?
Yeah, that’s what I thought.
Comment by Sister Toldjah @ 2/7/2006 - 8:29 pm
Preach it, Sistah!
And thanks for the trackback!
Comment by newton @ 2/7/2006 - 8:47 pm
The interesting about alexis’ comment is that the claim she is making is found in three places, two blogs by gay activists and one alleged newspaper, The Blade. The stories all say that the protest is planned. There is now account anywhere to be found that it did in fact occur. And don’t you think the NYT, WaPo and the wire services would have been all over it if it had happened?
Frankly I doubt that Phelps and his cousins had any attention of being there, I think The Blade just made it up putting themselves in a no-lose position of being able to claim, “we scared ‘em away” when it didn’t happen.
Comment by J Rob @ 2/7/2006 - 8:48 pm
that should be “…no account…” rather than “…now account…”
Comment by J Rob @ 2/7/2006 - 8:49 pm
>i’m not hearing any whining from the
>right about the presence of the lovely
>Fred Phelps protest clan
What’s one more group of sick Democrats? Oh… you didn’t know he was a Democrat, did you?
Comment by CavalierX @ 2/7/2006 - 9:04 pm
Great Googly Moogly, Alexis, are you SERIOUS? Coretta Scott King worked her entire life crusading against the War in Iraq? Coretta Scott King spent her entire life crusading against legal foreign eavesdropping? I must have missed that segment on The Today Show’s Black History Month Extravaganza.
“We didn’t find Weapons of Mass Destruction (two minutes of applause), but we did find Weapons of Mass Distraction (two minutes of applause).” Yeah. That’s what Martin Luther King was all about.
Comment by ArizonaTeach @ 2/7/2006 - 9:08 pm
perhaps i should clarify: i’m looking for a mention of the intended Phelps presence at the King funeral. they sent out a press release declaring their intention to picket because of King’s pro- gay marriage advocacy.
i recall Malkin’s Phelps post about the military protest. it remains one of the few things i imagine we would ever be able to agree on. however, i don’t agree that it proves your point (though that smug emoticon sure does! wow, zing on me!) in fact, i believe it makes her portrayal of Iraq war and Bush Administration criticism as Unhinged, classless behavior on the part of the left seem even more like what i called it: exploitation of the funeral for partisan smearing. i mean, Michelle and i agree that there are crazies on the right, and i’ll give her that there are some crazies on the left. that is why it is either stupid or disingenuous to characterize what people like Lowery and Carter said at the funeral as shameful or unhinged. cause, like, there’s an actual protest of the beliefs and actions of the person being memorialzed? one that is waaaaaaay more out of line then anything THOSE NUTTY MOONBATS did?
do you have reasonable support for why it’s sooooooo inappropriate criticize the Iraq war and the Bush administration at the funeral of a woman who spent her life advocating peace (who pointedly told President Bush she did not agree with preemptive warmongering when she met him back in 2004)?
Comment by alexis rox @ 2/7/2006 - 9:27 pm
“that is why it is either stupid or disingenuous to characterize what people like Lowery and Carter said at the funeral as shameful or unhinged. cause, like, there’s an actual protest of the beliefs and actions of the person being memorialzed? one that is waaaaaaay more out of line then anything THOSE NUTTY MOONBATS did?”
Moral reletavism at it’s finest.
“do you have reasonable support for why it’s sooooooo inappropriate criticize the Iraq war and the Bush administration at the funeral of a woman who spent her life advocating peace (who pointedly told President Bush she did not agree with preemptive warmongering when she met him back in 2004)? ”
Um, because playing politics at a funeral that includes the very guest you are insulting seems to be … well, bad form?![:-\](http://sistertoldjah.com/smilies/yahoo_question.gif ":-\")
Sheesh.
Comment by Sister Toldjah @ 2/7/2006 - 9:34 pm
“It was difficult for them then personally with the civil liberties of both husband and wife violated as they became the target of secret government wiretaps.”
What the Feds did to the Kings was shameful. Telling him to commit suicide, blackmailing him with surveillance tapes.
“The audience showed where its allegiance lay when former President Clinton and his wife, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, came to the podium to wild cheers and a long standing ovation.”
Who would imagine that a King funeral would be full of democrats.
Comment by andrew @ 2/7/2006 - 9:59 pm
Yeah, nothing like your enemy attending your funeral, learn something and read history….
LINK
Comment by sanity @ 2/7/2006 - 10:05 pm
“Yeah. That’s what Martin Luther King was all about.”
You should follow up on what he did after “I have a dream.”
Comment by andrew @ 2/7/2006 - 10:19 pm
“Yeah, nothing like your enemy attending your funeral, learn something and read history….”
Uh, RFK and LBJ are dead, and Byrd wasn’t there. Who are you talking about?
Comment by andrew @ 2/7/2006 - 10:24 pm
1) i admit hastiness in construing a plan to demonstrate as an actual demonstration as hasty. it probably would have been picked up by the AP, so it is reasonable to assume that for some reason Phelps et al did not get their shit together enough to show up. fair enough, i’m wrong sometimes, too, so i’ll lay off Malkin. however, i am going to call J Rob on his suggestion that the Blade would just make it up. they may be hasty to report on a possible story of interest to their readership, but that is entirely different from making it up, and Phelps’ group did in fact declare intentions to protest in a press release.
2) no, obviously Mrs King did not work her whole life to criticize the Iraq war or wiretapping, well, because the war didn’t exist yet. she did work her entire life to criticize war and promote nonviolence, which included the Iraq war when it finally happened.
3) Sister, i don’t agree that what i said is even a decent example of moral relativism, much less at its finest.
i think the people who knew Coretta Scott King and worked with her (like Rev. Joseph Lowery) have a pretty good idea how to run her funeral, and if he seems to think that lashing out at government policies (and i guess by association, the guy who spearheaded them) that stand in opposition to everything she worked for is a way to honor her, well i am going to go ahead and give him the benefit of the doubt.
i suppose i could argue that it is playing politics to engage in empty gestures, such as putting wreaths on the graves of popular civil rights leaders, or memorializing a notable pacifist in the very same SOTU in which you declare that the war we are currently engaged in is pretty much never going to end.
Comment by alexis rox @ 2/7/2006 - 10:32 pm
Jimmy Carter, the Worst President In Recent History, broke the old tradition former Presidents not criticising the current President. Republicans still hold to this fine tradition. Carter and then Clinton have moved the Dem’s into unbecoming territory.
Comment by kevin @ 2/8/2006 - 5:04 am
Did they in fact declare their intention to do so? Yeah, The Blade had what purported to be a flier, but they seem to be the only ones who received it. That is suspicious in and of itself. Their apparent gays-can-do-no-wrong editorial stance makes anything they publish suspect as far as I am concerned. Your reporting of Phelps presence was more than hasty, it was disingenuous (or at the very least lazy) as you reported it as if it were a fact AFTER the non-event supposedly occured.
Phelps has become the posterboy of intolerance, and rightly so. He is a dispicable bigot. That said, no responsible conservative, Christian or even Baptist denomination has anything to do with him. His only known political affiliation is the Democratic Party.
As to the conduct of a funeral. This was supposedly a Christian funeral. Any clergyperson who would not only allow, but actively participate in it becoming a political rally should be defrocked and his/her church’s tax exempt status revoked. We hear from the left that is wrong for it to be done on the right, the same applies the other way.
Comment by J Rob @ 2/8/2006 - 5:18 am
I don’t know how I missed this from andrew,
“What the Feds did to the Kings was shameful. Telling him to commit suicide, blackmailing him with surveillance tapes.”
What andy neglected to tell us was that that was done by then-attornet general ROBERT F.KENNEDY who was serving under President LYNDON B.JOHNSON!
Last I looked neither of them is named, “Bush” and neither have a (R) after thier name.
Comment by J Rob @ 2/8/2006 - 5:35 am
The only reason George W Bush or any Republican was invited, was for bashing purposes only. The president could have diffused it by asserting, before, the others spoke, something like: Let us put aside our differences for this moment and not disgrace this loss with political rhetoric, but instead honor this great women. Something like that would have taken the wind out of the windbags before the had a chance to speak. The would be muttering and stumbling for words.
Comment by harrylooker @ 2/8/2006 - 6:17 am
harry, you are assuming that they have a sense of shame. These were shameless politicians, no more no less. I doubt the President saying something like that would have diffused it.
Comment by J Rob @ 2/8/2006 - 8:07 am
Liberals wonder why they are so held in contempt by the public. This is a shining example. Not only the political rally/funeral, but the apologists who trolled in here.
Decorum, the libs never heard of it, let alone practice it.
You had 8 years of Clinton. What did Bubba do besides Monica and grope Mrs. Willey?
Comment by PCD @ 2/8/2006 - 8:31 am
“What andy neglected to tell us was that that was done by then-attornet general ROBERT F.KENNEDY who was serving under President LYNDON B.JOHNSON!”
So? That doesn’t make it right. But Its funny how a democrat pointing out the fault of a democrat president and his overreaching FBI director is taken by someone as ‘bush bashing.’ Defensive much?
“Let us put aside our differences for this moment and not disgrace this loss with political rhetoric, but instead honor this great women.”
You dishonor this great woman if you do not mention work that needs to be done on war and poverty. She’s not some bland ideal we all get to say we agree with. She was an activist with a sense of right and wrong that many in this country, presidents and ex-presidents, cannot agree and do not agree with.
Truly, Coretta’s funeral, life and death, shows:
“It’s amazing how much panic one honest WOMAN can spread among a multitude of hypocrites”
Comment by andrew @ 2/8/2006 - 8:32 am
The main problem with this is that President Bush was damned if he showed up and damned if he didn’t! Could you imagine if the President had not shown up for Coretta Scott King’s funeral to pay his respects? I would guess that George W. Bush had some idea of what was going to happen as the Democrats seem to use funerals as pep rallies. The President showed great dignity while Carter and Lowery crawled in the mud and show the public not just those in attendance what they really are.
Comment by Jim M @ 2/8/2006 - 8:55 am
Nope. But it’s just another example of why you should not listen to Democrats. Spying on a person like MLK is so reprehensible that only a Democrat would consider it. Spying on terrorists is so obviously necessary that only a Democrat would question it.
I totally agree. I watched the multitude of hypocrites speak (you can download them over at the political teen) and it was so disheartening to watch. It’s like they learned nothing from Paul Wellstone’s funeral. Most Americans expect to see respectful remembrance at funerals, not political statements. Very disrespectful.
It would be like someone getting up at Reagan’s funeral and saying “Reagan was a great man, who’s main concern was lowering taxes for Americans. He would have wanted these tax cuts to be permanent.” There is no doubt that this is true, but saying that would be almost as tacky as what that reverend said.
Comment by blogagog @ 2/8/2006 - 8:59 am
Please, God, if I am ever famous, let there be no Liberals speaking at my funeral. If anyone speaks, let them speak in remembrance of me, not to further their own agenda. There will be plenty of time for them to rant and bloviate after I’m buried… but while I’m lying right there in front of everyone, it would be nice if they spent the time saying goodbye.
Comment by CavalierX @ 2/8/2006 - 9:02 am
As a Leftie and a veteran I will honestly admit I was disgusted by our worst president in my lifetime’s behaviour yesterday(BTW 43 ain’t far behind) It was simply disgraceful. PERIOD. Not all of us on the left are moonbats. I hope some of youse on this blog interpert this statement as an olive branch.
I mean it.
Comment by tommy in nyc @ 2/8/2006 - 9:12 am
Thanks for serving! I unfortunately disagree with most of your positions, but you have my sincere respect for being willing to fight to keep the right to express those positions. What branch?
Comment by blogagog @ 2/8/2006 - 9:17 am
““Reagan was a great man, who’s main concern was lowering taxes for Americans. He would have wanted these tax cuts to be permanent.””
Well, you would be wrong: he raised taxes more often than he cut them.
But I think that’s a very narrow vision of Reagan. Opposing war and poverty? that’s not a narrow vision of Coretta.
Comment by andrew @ 2/8/2006 - 9:20 am
You’re kind of missing the point Andrew. Everyone opposes war and poverty. But the funeral of a great woman should not be construed as an opportunity to state your personal views, even if you believe they are in solidarity with the deceased. The living have the rest of their lives to do that. It’s in horribly poor taste, and you should stop sticking up for them.
Paul Wellstone is now most well known as the Senator who’s funeral was co-opted for political gain. Did you want that Mrs. King to suffer that fate as well? Two ex-Presidents and a reverend all but guaranteed it yesterday.
Comment by blogagog @ 2/8/2006 - 9:29 am
“You’re kind of missing the point Andrew. Everyone opposes war and poverty.”
Not the way Coretta did.
“But the funeral of a great woman should not be construed as an opportunity to state your personal views, even if you believe they are in solidarity with the deceased. ”
The funeral should be about her. We should forget our opinions, and eulogize hers. Our opinion that this war is just, that money is better spent on war than poverty, needs to take a back seat to her opinion, to her sense of right and wrong that challenges ours. This is not a day to turn her into a bland martyr for us all, but a day for her.
“Paul Wellstone is now most well known as the Senator who’s funeral was co-opted for political gain. Did you want that Mrs. King to suffer that fate as well? ”
I can’t control the right wing overraction to hearing about how much other people fought against them. I do not want Coretta to suffer the fate of the right-wing hatefest when its pointed out that what she stood for is not what they stand for. But I’m used to our toxic political climate. They won’t rest on her day of rest.
Comment by andrew @ 2/8/2006 - 9:33 am
Tommy thanks for serving! It shouldn’t matter what your party affiliation is that display by Carter and Lowery was simply disgraceful. As a Veteran also I believe in freedom of speech but a funeral is not the place for your political beliefs it should be to remember that persons life and accomplishments.
Comment by Jim M @ 2/8/2006 - 9:39 am
Obviously, I can’t teach you about tact. You can continue to blame the wrong people, but the fact is that political speeches at a funeral show great disrespect for the deceased. They create divisiveness, when it is MOST important to come together. More important than at any other time.
This was a great woman, who went through tremendous difficulties, and supported only by President Johnson and the Republicans in Congress (as well as MLK himself of course), ushered in a new age of equality the world had never known.
That got lost yesterday in the b’ing and moaning. It’s very sad. She deserved more than that.
Comment by blogagog @ 2/8/2006 - 9:48 am
Agreed, Kevin - of course, the moonbats are obfuscating the issue (as is the norm) by claiming the people who are outraged at the cheap shots levelled against the President at the funeral are “attacking Coretta Scott King and her family!!!!!!!!!!” (emphasis theirs). Of course we know that’s not the case here, but if you repeat something often enough …
Comment by Sister Toldjah @ 2/8/2006 - 9:51 am
Liberals like andrew can’t accept responsibility for their actions. They scream like spoiled children not getting their way, yet they want not only to be treated like adults, but to run the world. Their time is up.
This was not a King funeral as much as it was a liberal pep rally. In that Justice Thomas and Secretary of State Rice POINTEDLY WERE NOT INVITED, this pep rally does reflect the mental disease of the left.
Comment by PCD @ 2/8/2006 - 9:55 am
“This was a great woman, who went through tremendous difficulties, and supported only by President Johnson and the Republicans in Congress (as well as MLK himself of course), ushered in a new age of equality the world had never known.”
If you think that’s all she’s done, you haven’t done much coming together on her life.
Coretta was controversy, if people want to come together on this day, they can come over to her side, and be welcome.
Comment by andrew @ 2/8/2006 - 9:56 am
Indeed ST! Like anyone has other than full respect for the lady. It makes me really uncomfortable that some on the left view her passing as an ‘opportunity’ to grandstand.
Comment by blogagog @ 2/8/2006 - 10:04 am
Once again Andrew you totally missed the point a funeral (At least the ones I have attended) is to help the family members through their grief at the loss of a loved one! It is to commemorate that person’s life NOT to use the gathering to spout you political beliefs and try to belittle someone or anyone in attendance. There is a right and wrong time to make your personal views known and Carter and Lowery chose the wrong time and place. PERIOD.
Comment by Jim M @ 2/8/2006 - 10:08 am
“It is to commemorate that person’s life NOT to use the gathering to spout you political beliefs and try to belittle someone or anyone in attendance.”
Exactly. Its time to celebrate the work of Coretta: for social and economic justice. Its time to be by her side, and not on our own.
Comment by andrew @ 2/8/2006 - 10:10 am
Tommy wrote, “I hope some of youse on this blog interpert this statement as an olive branch
Olive branches are fine as long as they aren’t followed up with INCORRECT attacks. We have asked you to research before stating things irresponsibly. That’s all. THe best olive branch would be researching as we have really tried to reach out to you hear but you argue vehemently with us (without addressing the point - and continuing to level incorrect charges irresponsibly)
Comment by Baklava @ 2/8/2006 - 10:11 am
“If you think that’s all she’s done, you haven’t done much coming together on her life.”
I don’t really think tht Kevin needs a lecture from you on Coretta Scott King’s life. Something tells me he’s light years ahead of you on knowledge of Mrs. King’s works.
“Coretta was controversy, if people want to come together on this day, they can come over to her side, and be welcome. ”
That’s really not how it works, andrew. There may be people who don’t fully want to come over to “her side” (whatever that is). This is about showing respect for her life and accomplisments - not making people come to “her side.” Your saying that is like me telling you that you should have “come over to Reagan’s side” during his funeral ceremony. One an honor another person’s life without believing in everything single thing that person stood for. Furthermore, political commentary could have been made at the ceremony without taking partisan cheap shots at the President.
Apparently there is no stone some of you guys will leave unturned. It’s really a shame.
Comment by Sister Toldjah @ 2/8/2006 - 10:15 am
Very true. But they were not discussing her work. They were discussing her regrets. Not really HER regrets, but THEIR regrets. You should really go to the political teen and see what you are condoning before you continue. It will take a half an hour from your life, but it will be well spent.
I link to the main page because each speaker is on a separate post. Take a few minutes to see what you are supporting. You may quit supporting it.
Comment by blogagog @ 2/8/2006 - 10:21 am
“I don’t really think tht Kevin needs a lecture from you on Coretta Scott King’s life. Something tells me he’s light years ahead of you on knowledge of Mrs. King’s works.”
Like I said, everyone that’s just telling me about her work on segregation has got to get with times, and learn that Coretta was not someone we can ‘all agree on’ but someone who often opposed much of what we all like; much of what this country’s policy is.
“Your saying that is like me telling you that you should have “come over to Reagan’s side” during his funeral ceremony.”
That’s why I wouldn’t go to his funeral. But I would go to Coretta’s. She was right. Reagan was wrong.
Comment by andrew @ 2/8/2006 - 10:27 am
“That’s why I wouldn’t go to his funeral. But I would go to Coretta’s. She was right. Reagan was wrong.”
You’re such a hypocrite it’s pathetic. Points people make here are, as usual, completely lost on you. Keep this up andrew and you’ll be right back on full moderation again. My patience is running out.
Comment by Sister Toldjah @ 2/8/2006 - 10:29 am
“You’re such a hypocrite it’s pathetic. Points people make here are, as usual, completely lost on you.”
Whats hypocritical about this? I wouldn’t go to Reagan’s funeral out of respect for him because he’s not agreeable to me. That’s not hypocritical. That’s exactly my point: I don’t want Reagan turned into someone I can agree with just for his funeral. Go ahead, celebrate what he was. Just like we celebrate what Coretta was. Its consistent, not hypocritical.
“Very true. But they were not discussing her work. They were discussing her regrets. Not really HER regrets, but THEIR regrets. You should really go to the political teen and see what you are condoning before you continue. It will take a half an hour from your life, but it will be well spent.”
I saw some of the speeches. Its an hours long funeral but I have only seen a few minutes worth. I’d like to see more of Maya Angelou, for instance. But it doesn’t seem like that site is hosting that. They do have room to host some Wellstone stuff, because that helps to promote their script, their view of how to celeberate and whitewash the life and truggle Coretta.
Comment by andrew @ 2/8/2006 - 10:35 am
Andrew said; for social and economic justice. Its time to be by her side, and not on our own. Where the hell did that come from you need to wait until the drugs wear off before you start blithering on!
Comment by Jim M @ 2/8/2006 - 10:35 am
So, the fact that Robert Kennedy wiretapped M.L.King is proof to the Democrats of Republican perfidy? What have they all been smoking?
This is why you shouldn’t invite the Cossacks to supper. They’ll insult you, rape your wife, crap on your floor, steal the silverware, and expect you to invite them again! This is the third time I’ve seen this sort of rude behavior at a public memorial for a Democrat. They don’t have manners or any sense of proportion.
Yelling ‘Amen’ at lies from the pulpit is not a sign of intelligence. Even listening to the blitherings of Carter is a sign of coma.
Yeesh! Let’s make sure this stuff is broadcast come election time. I know it will play well.
Comment by benning @ 2/8/2006 - 10:47 am
The constitution does not guarantee social and economic justice.
While this government strives for equal opportunity that means that there must be personal responsibility also.
You can’t simply remove wealth from those who produce and give to those who don’t to make things just or equal. People need to live up to their potential.
And BTW, Black home ownership and wealth is at it’s highest point than any time in history. Black colleges are getting more federal funding than any point in history. There is no need to keep going on the theme (it doesn’t pursuade anyone) that the messages of some at Coretta’s funeral weren’t out of line. They were. That is our perspective. If you don’t like it you can just say you don’t agree but you won’t convince us with your reckless charges that we shouldn’t hold our point of view.
Comment by Baklava @ 2/8/2006 - 10:50 am
“So, the fact that Robert Kennedy wiretapped M.L.King is proof to the Democrats of Republican perfidy? What have they all been smoking?”
Only republicans, not democrats, have been saying this. What have they been smoking?
“The constitution does not guarantee social and economic justice.”
That’s why Coretta had to fight for it.
Comment by andrew @ 2/8/2006 - 10:53 am
Andrew wrote, “That’s why Coretta had to fight for it.
And therefore she is to be given respect, but to attack people outside or even at the funeral is over the line. Thats my perspective. It shows lack of class and disrespect. You can’t see that one bit Andrew?
Comment by Baklava @ 2/8/2006 - 11:01 am
” Thats my perspective. It shows lack of class and disrespect. You can’t see that one bit Andrew?”
I can see it. I also see that Coretta’s fight was all about going being what was ‘proper’ and ‘respectful’ and doing instead what was right.
Comment by andrew @ 2/8/2006 - 11:04 am
WOW! Andrew hit on the difference and perhaps the confusion over this. Talking about Reagan’s funeral he said:
That is almost the exact opposite of the conservative view. Should Clinton die tomorrow, any conservative would go to pay respects. There is absolutely no chance that a conservative would disrepect him like two presidents and a reverend did to Mrs. King by preaching their views (except maybe Pat Robertson, but we kicked him out of the party long ago). No conservative would deign to be able to read the mind of Bill and expouse his beliefs, ever.
When ST said:
I might disagree with the hypocrite part. I think he’s really honest when he says it’s important to condemn people at her funeral. And I would even go as far as replacing ‘pathetic’ with ’sad’. Here’s why.
It’s sad that you consider it a requirement that upon her death, a whinefest should occur. Why not celebrate her? Political cr*p (can I say cr*p?) is unimportant compared to the death of a leader. As two presidents, a reverend, and Andrew illustrate, the left simply doesn’t understand this.
Andrew, the political teen site only taped the egregious speakers. The fact that Maya Angelou did not appear is proof that she understands the solemnity of death. You can read all about her speech here if you want to honor Mrs. King. I re-suggest that you actually listen to the speeches that you are supporting. Link above. I continue to believe you just haven’t heard them. Would you rather I quote them? I will do it if need be. It’s pretty selfish if you are just too lazy to listen to it though.
Comment by blogagog @ 2/8/2006 - 11:10 am
” There is absolutely no chance that a conservative would disrepect him like two presidents and a reverend did to Mrs. King by preaching their views (except maybe Pat Robertson, but we kicked him out of the party long ago).”
Like I said. Avoiding a funeral because it will celebrate things I consider wrong is not disrespect. Its respectful of the achievements of the deceased.
“It’s sad that you consider it a requirement that upon her death, a whinefest should occur.”
It was a sixhour long funeral. Whats sad is you disagree with a few things there and call it a whinefest. Whats sad is people see calls for correcting injustice, a continuing of her struggle, as a ‘whine.’
” I continue to believe you just haven’t heard them. Would you rather I quote them? ”
They’re saved on my hard drive. Did you like the ‘together at last’ line? You get my problems with political teen. He’s not interested in the funeral, in celbrating Coretta. Only in scoring points by highlighting a few minutes of the six hours of it.
Comment by andrew @ 2/8/2006 - 11:20 am
J Rob- westboro authored a press release declaring their intent to protest. i happened to catch an early version of a wikipedia article that cited said event as fact. the article was quickly reverted, and i amended my claims. my bad. your charge of laziness is baseless and wrong- i’ve done nothing but 1) my day job and 2) research to defend my claims since making them, and i’ve amended them. i would argue that to be disingenuous i would need to knowingly obscure information, and to be intellectually lazy i wouldn’t bother to do more research and continue to think about this. so back up.
and do you really believe that anti-Bush statements by a clergy person are grounds for loss of tax-exempt status? really? do you also think Pat Robertson should be defrocked because he ran for the presidency and his organization’s tax-exempt status revoked for its regular participation in the political process?
i would also add that the fact that Phelps affiliates with democrats only affirms my belief that blind party affiliation is a bad idea. so back up.
that aside, the fundamental point i’m trying to make, and what i think andrew is trying to say, is thus:
the point of a funeral is to honor the deceased. period. the people who knew the deceased best are in charge of constructing the funeral in a way that they beleive honors said deceased.
if the people who actually knew the deceased think that criticism of war is an appropriate way to honor the deceased, then that is ok by me.
is anyone else able to see how the criticism and the criticism of the criticism can be similarly construed as political exploitation? anybody?
Comment by alexis rox @ 2/8/2006 - 11:21 am
Mrs. King aside, it’s not about ’scoring points’. I will assume you understand what we on the right are saying about disrespect. What you do after you understand that is up to you.
Comment by blogagog @ 2/8/2006 - 11:44 am
The biggest problem with Liberals is their hyperinflated egos. Andrew here wouldn’t attend Reagan’s funeral if invited because andrew didn’t like him — andrew’s ego would not permit him to show respect for someone whose views he disagreed with. If I were invited to speak at Carter’s or Clinton’s funeral, not only would I attend out of respect for the families and the office they held, but I would try like hell to find something to praise about them. I sure wouldn’t stand up there and rant about how they were the worst Presidents of my lifetime so far, and how their policies did terrible harm to this country. I definitely wouldn’t make a speech attacking the current President, whoever he or she might be. It’s not the time, and it’s not the place. But Liberals have no sense of dignity or decorum, because they see themselves as far more important than others.
Comment by CavalierX @ 2/8/2006 - 11:49 am
” Andrew here wouldn’t attend Reagan’s funeral if invited because andrew didn’t like him — andrew’s ego would not permit him to show respect for someone whose views he disagreed with.”
I would show respect. I would do so by letting there be a celebration of the man’s life and achievements. I’m not scared that people would do that. I would expect people to do that. Its just not for me.
Comment by andrew @ 2/8/2006 - 12:04 pm
- Andrew… In some ways you continue to amaze with your willingness to jump into the wood chipper of stupid indefensible positions. Reagan was the all time showcase example of just how totally out of step and wrong the left can be. One hour after he was inaugurated the hostages were released in Iran, exactly because they knew they couldn’t get away with the fun and games they enjoyed under the Jhimmy admin. The bleating of the moonbats began almost immediately, and continued, unabated, right up to the time he shamed Gorbachev into tearing down the wall. You could hear the Liberal wailing from Berkeley to Anaheim.
- Andrew, you and the left are just wrong, and you were never more wrong than you were during Reagans administration. It was actually embarrassing to watch you foam at the mouth, so completely out of touch with the world. Just stop. I’m embarrassed for you at this point. The reason Lowery didn’t mention Bobby as the perp in the wiretapping of King is that one of His lefty sychophants, Bobbies brother Kennedrunk, was sitting right behind him. Thats the typical “historical revisionism” the left has raised to an art form. Kennedy and King were political enemies, and the left knows that. So instead we’ll compare “wiretapping” of political foes to something (enemy survailence during wartime) that is totally different in the Bush admin. just to take a cheap shot. Your leadership are idiots Andrew, and you’re not making yourself look good by following them, much less defending their mendacity…..
- The display by the left yesterday. Its simple. They’re desperate. Desperate people do desperate things. Maybe it wasn’t obvious because the left always screams as loud as they can, but if you paid attention you might have noticed that less than half the crowd was doing all thet yelling. The new Elephant in the room that has the Liberals running scared is their “plantation/race card” hold on Black America is slipping. What the left does not want them to realize, is that victimization only works up to a point. After that you need to tack off into personal achievement and discard “victim” politics, or you’ll forever limit yourself. It will be interesting to see how much longer the Black community will be willing to join in the outreageous bigotry and shameful cartoons attacking prominent Americans just because their Conservatives. At some point they’re going to say….”Hey wait a minute….why are we doing this.. wasn’t that the whole dream….. for our leaders to “make it”…. This is nuts”…..
- The Dems know all this. When it comes to pass, all the race baiters like Sharpton and Jackson will be out of business. They also know that. So expect things to get really ugly before its over. But in the end they can’t win. You can’t make people keep themselves from full and complete “colorless” citizenship, just to hang onto power.
- When Hillery talks about “Plantation Congress…” ect, it doesn’t ring well. when Bill does it he sounds like a good ole sympathetic guy. When Hillery does it, its sounds like “Oh you poor incapible souls….Let us elite Liberals take care of you….”. I’ve had several Black friends tell me its really upsetting them, as did a number of things the Left engaged in, during the past few years. the political chickens the left has let loose are going to come home to roost…
- Its going to be interesting……
- Bang
Comment by Big Bang Hunter @ 2/8/2006 - 1:39 pm
“One hour after he was inaugurated the hostages were released in Iran, exactly because they knew they couldn’t get away with the fun and games they enjoyed under the Jhimmy admin.”
Not because of promised missle sales. Everything the left can’t be.
“The reason Lowery didn’t mention Bobby as the perp in the wiretapping of King is that one of His lefty sychophants, Bobbies brother Kennedrunk, was sitting right behind him.”
Lowery didn’t mention any wiretapping.
For Coretta, as you might know, the issue is not democrat vs. conservative. It is right vs. wrong. Don’t try to turn this event into a partisan thing. Its about wrong vs. right, not dem v. republican.
Comment by andrew @ 2/8/2006 - 1:46 pm
Yup, and the Dems are wrong…
Comment by Severian @ 2/8/2006 - 1:51 pm
“For Coretta, as you might know, the issue is not democrat vs. conservative. It is right vs. wrong. Don’t try to turn this event into a partisan thing. Its about wrong vs. right, not dem v. republican.”
- Precisely Andrew. Since you posted that, what part of “Coretta deserved better than having her well deserved moment of honor being turned into a leftwing political screed fest”… can’t you comphrehend?
- Bang
Comment by Big Bang Hunter @ 2/8/2006 - 1:51 pm
“For Coretta, as you might know, the issue is not democrat vs. conservative. It is right vs. wrong. Don’t try to turn this event into a partisan thing. Its about wrong vs. right, not dem v. republican. ”
Congrats, andrew - we’ve finally gotten you to spin around into agreeing with the rest of us.
Comment by Sister Toldjah @ 2/8/2006 - 1:56 pm
“Since you posted that, what part of “Coretta deserved better than having her well deserved moment of honor being turned into a leftwing political screed fest”… can’t you comphrehend?”
The part where she WAS a “leftwing political screed”! Do you know who or what she stood for? Pacifism, social justice, and agitation!
“Congrats, andrew - we’ve finally gotten you to spin around into agreeing with the rest of us”
Oh, I think i’ve been right all along. Some people are intent on turning this into a partisan score. People who don’t like what was right about Coretta. People who are afraid of what she points out is wrong with our country, regardless of the party in power doing the wrong.
Comment by andrew @ 2/8/2006 - 2:01 pm
“Yup, and the Dems are wrong…”
And the point goes over someone’s head.
Comment by andrew @ 2/8/2006 - 2:02 pm
- The left has hijacked Coretta’s ideas and warped them to their agenda. That won’t work either Andrew. If repeating all the Liberal distortions are all you’ve got…. Next!…..
Comment by Big Bang Hunter @ 2/8/2006 - 2:06 pm
“The left has hijacked Coretta’s ideas and warped them to their agenda. That won’t work either Andrew.”
Indeed. We’ve sanitized them.
Comment by andrew @ 2/8/2006 - 2:13 pm
“Indeed. We’ve sanitized them.”
- How “elitist” of you….
- Well apparently you need to fire your laundryman and go for some new sanitizing because through a number of Democratic, and Republican administrations the percentage of “out of wedlock” births, and fatherless families in the Black communities rose from 23% in 1970, through Lyndons admin, to 78% through Clinton/Bush terms. Since you lefties live and die by polls I’ll assume you take note.
- Also since the Liberals have led the Black caucus since the early 70’s I guess we could say that all your wonderful Social programs have been a resounding failure and Black Americans have been no better off during Democratic admins than Republicans.
- Hmmmmm…. Despite all the leftist screeching for the past 35+ years about working for the underdog, something seems to be wrong with this picture.
- You think?
- Bang
Comment by Big Bang Hunter @ 2/8/2006 - 2:23 pm
Andrew needs to get Hannitized!
Comment by Severian @ 2/8/2006 - 2:33 pm
Alexis, read what I said, “This was supposedly a Christian funeral. Any clergyperson who would not only allow, but actively participate in it becoming a political rally should be defrocked and his/her church’s tax exempt status revoked.”
I said this because the pastor is responsible for what is said and done from his pulpit…period! The fact that Lowery led the charge into partisanship speaks for itself. Every election cycle we hear the left whining about conservative churches being partisan while ignoring their own sins in that realm. When John Kerry goes into a church and campaign contributions are solicited and received on his behalf (monetary and otherwise) that church’s tax exempt status should come under review at the very least. The same goes for whoever his opponent is. That game has to play both ways or not at all.
This should have been a funeral to celebrate the life of Mrs. King. What it became lays at the feet of the pastor in charge, as should the consequences.
Comment by J Rob @ 2/8/2006 - 2:42 pm
Cheap political thuggery by a washed up hack touting a worn out and discredited ideology of the victimhood of all the poor lil’ ol’ negroes who cannot do for themselves without the help of (name your group or agency here).
Pathetic group of hasbeens.
Comment by rick vid @ 2/8/2006 - 2:50 pm
- One think I have to say is that our President showed a hell of a lot of class, going into that rats nest of Liberal wingnuts, knowing full well from the names on the RSVP list what he was in for, and he responded with grace and proper respect for Coretta’s moment of honor and recognition, not allowing the crass, fecklessness of his opponents to shake his resolve. The left may be a long time realizing the contrast, and cost to their cause, in those TV pictures for all the nation to see….
- Bang
Comment by Big Bang Hunter @ 2/8/2006 - 3:03 pm
What astonished me about this situation (that the side of the political aisle which prevents public speakers from making their point at college campuses, from protesters who claim censorship when it’s only the time and place they choose that most non-political people object to, that a side which credits itself with being more sensitive to nuances…and it doesn’t get more nuanced than death and mourning, my friends) should not understand why most people are disgusted by what happened yesterday at Mrs. King’s funeral.
Unlike many Conservatives, I suspect Mrs. King probably told Reverend Lowery alllll the things he mentioned in his eulogy — so in that respect, I don’t think we can inject our values about it, just because it would be unthinkable for us to hold such a bile-spewing “celebration” in front of a casket containing a person’s body.
But I also know that Mrs. King conducted herself in an impeccable manner publicly, partly because she was protective not only of her image, but more importantly, of Dr. King’s.
In this way, I think what we saw, might not have been to her taste.
It doesn’t matter if she fought a million battles for peace (non sequitur though that seems), you don’t behave in a spiteful, bitter manner in public, if you want to be taken seriously.
Since yesterday, I have spoken to a few black acquaintances, including my postman, about the tenor of the funeral, and they were almost to a man and woman, appalled.
Shame.
Cheers,
Victoria
Comment by Victoria @ 2/8/2006 - 3:59 pm
J Rob-
i promise, i really did read what you said:
“This was supposedly a Christian funeral. Any clergyperson who would not only allow, but actively participate in it becoming a political rally should be defrocked and his/her church’s tax exempt status revoked.”
that is not an even remotely reasonable assertion. are you really suggesting that Christians not be allowed to have political views, or express them, even when ? i am a pretty big fan of separation of church and state, but that is severe, even for extremists like me.
religious leaders tell their congregations what to think on political issues ALL THE TIME. pat robertson, the people behind Justice Sunday, that guy who threatened to kick people out of his congregation if they voted for Kerry, the UU minister who compared the 14 components of fascism to the current administration in a sermon.
after lots of re-reading, i think to have any validity, your statement had to be accurate in calling this a “political rally.” how was this a political rally? were any signs waved around? balloons dropped from the sky? photo-op waving and infant kissing?
in your reply post, you make a good point: if campaign contributions are being solicited by or at churches, it is probably a good idea to review them. i agree.
i continue to assert that angry posts and cable news shouting (ie, Kate O’Beirne) over politics at Mrs King’s funeral seems to be exactly the same as what the complaining is all about: namely, that a funeral is being exploited for political purposes. frankly, i think it’s worse: how can Kate, or any of us, honestly claim to know what is and is not appropriate behavior at the funeral of Coretta Scott King, or say what would have wanted? wouldn’t her long-time friends, and her family, know best how to honor her? isn’t it possible, even reasonable, that a lifelong political actvist who opposed all war all her life be pleased to hear her fellow freedom fighter speak against the war in Iraq? after all, a speaker criticized Vietnam at Dr King’s funeral.
Comment by alexis rox @ 2/8/2006 - 9:00 pm
Victoria,
Edited. –ST I promise that black people overall had little problem with what happened at the funeral. The biggest reaction that I’ve heard is the outrage of having a governor who campaigned on the confederate flag sitting center stage at Coretta’s funeral.
Also, while you can applaud W’s lack of reaction, look at the pictures of his wife pouting at Coretta’s funeral as if they should have bowed to her. The lack of class on Laura Bush’s part is despicable. This event had nothing to do with her. I’ve never heard her say more than two words about the civil rights movement. What a lack of class.
Comment by Derrick @ 2/8/2006 - 9:03 pm
cripes, that was long. i hope people take the time to read it.
i also wanted to say this: a disturbing trend is to see any criticism of the current administration, its policies, or its war characterized over and over as crazy, unhinged, out of touch, impolite, uncivil. political speech at a funeral is not civil. t-shirts with anti-war statements at the state of the union are undignified. political cartoons that satirize rumsfeld by using his own words to criticize his rejection of Pentagon-sponsored research that the army might be cracking under the Iraq pressures are “shamless” and disrespectful of our troops. oh, and my favorite, Democrats asking tough questions of a Supreme Court nominee about some of their grave concerns are TOTALLY CLASSLESS!!! instead of perhaps doing their jobs? frankly i would expect and welcome the same questions at any judicial nominee, from any president.
so when is the appropriate time to have dissent?
the problem with this administration is that it is extremist, yet passes itself off as mainstream. it is not.
Comment by alexis rox @ 2/8/2006 - 9:12 pm
Alexis asked, “so when is the appropriate time to have dissent?
You are doing so now.
The point is that the dissenting message is way off target.
Then as a typical liberal with condescension you offer a laundry list of a message that has false premises for each point. It’s about YOUR message.
Ignoring your laundry list (which would take paragraphs each to respond to) I believe that liberals/Democrats have been dissenting and loudly. It would be respectful and civil for them to take one day off (while at a funeral) to stop trying to score political pints. It’s SICK!
Comment by Baklava @ 2/8/2006 - 9:42 pm
I would have to agree with Alexis on one thing. The administration is not mainstream. The mainstream American wants less taxes, less entitlements, and less government spending. Bush is most definitely to the left of mainstream. The prescription drug plan proves it. Not to the extreme left as alexis suggests, but to the left nevertheless.
Comment by blogagog @ 2/8/2006 - 9:58 pm
“This was supposedly a Christian funeral. Any clergyperson who would not only allow, but actively participate in it becoming a political rally should be defrocked and his/her church’s tax exempt status revoked.”
During a six hour long funeral when we bury a dedicated pacifist no-one is supposed to mention that war is bad. How christian
Also. How christian that a preacher isn’t supposed to moralize, to tell us what is right and what is wrong.
Comment by andrew @ 2/8/2006 - 10:28 pm
It’s already clear that you don’t have the respect required to go to the funeral of such a great woman. Why do you continue to belittle her with additional comments?
She was a great woman, and accomplished great things. Please please please stop minimizing her with your gripes with the current administration. I’d be ok if it reflected on you, but you are making it reflect on her. It is painful to hear you make her death a political issue about current events.
Comment by blogagog @ 2/8/2006 - 10:43 pm
“It is painful to hear you make her death a political issue about current events.”
But its not her death people are talkign about. Its her life of pacifism. A pacifism that is not mainstream.
Comment by andrew @ 2/8/2006 - 10:48 pm
And you think they were talking about her life!?!?!? You never got around to actually listening to them did you (that’s not a question. The answer is obvious).
I give up. You either will not or can not understand that respecting the dead is not even similar to making a political statement.
When Steve Jobs passes, let’s not waste time on what a great man he was, let’s talk about how people who don’t own Apple computers are fools.
I will tell you that I despise people who stick with a position even when they realize it is a foolish one. There is not much that is more pointless. I understand that it is EXTREMELY difficult to admit when you are wrong, but it’s a sign of inner strength when you do.
Comment by blogagog @ 2/8/2006 - 11:23 pm
Baklava
i would very much like to hear the false premises in each of my points.
the major criticisms of the behavior at the funeral seem to fall into 2 categories: 1) political speech has no place at funerals and 2) critical speech of Bush’s policies is disrespectful to Bush
1) the funeral of a progressive, political, anti-war activist, who devoted her life to progressive, political, anti-war causes, is probably going to contain some progressive, political, anti-war speech from some of her progressive, political, anti-war friends. her friends and family saw it fit to honor her that way, and it just doesn’t seem right to tell people they aren’t mourning correctly. when musician Gram Parsons died his friends set his body ablaze in Joshua Tree Nat’l Park- because he had said that was what he wanted.
how is it not an equal form of political exploitation of the event to go on the cable news circuit and decry the behavior as Democrats acting nutso and uncivil? did kate o’beirne offer any discussion of who this woman truly was, what her work was all about, how she told the president to his face she did not like the war back in 2004 (at her husband’s grave, no less)? if she did, i would be pretty impressed.
2) the comments made at the funeral were fully in line with and a promotion of everything Coretta Scott King stood for. how is that Bush-Bashing? or unhinged, partisan politicizing? if King made a name for herself as a global leader through support of nonviolence and the healing power of love, why can’t we talk about her views at her funeral? this service was for and about Coretta Scott King. that she and our current president did not see eye to eye on issues like the Iraq war does not mean that to talk about her worldview in front of said president is “disrespectful.”
dissent is essential to democratic society. the exchange is (mostly) the kind of reasonable, issue-based debate that i wish we could see more in our government. thanks for letting me hang.
again, this is not about liberal/conservative/democrat/republican/whatever. those are relatively arbitrary terms used to pull the public into choosing sides based on wedge issues, spin, and lies. we might actually find out we have a lot more in common with one another Other Team than they thought if they just sat down and talked about things, much to the chagrin of many of elected class.</