Conservative icon and NRO Editor William F. Buckley, Jr. created quite a stir last week when he came out and essentially said we’ve lost in Iraq. The popular sentiment seemed to be that he, as a staunch conservative, was a strong supporter of the Iraq war who had resigned himself to the belief that we’d lost there.
Ramesh Ponnuru at NRO reminds everyone that Buckley has been a skeptic of the Iraq war for quite some time:
William F. Buckley Jr. has been skeptical about the Iraq venture for some time. Two years ago he said that if he had known before the war that Saddam Hussein had no WMD, he would have opposed the war. The mosque bombing appears to have been the final straw for him. He now says that it is beyond doubt that “the American objective in Iraq has failed.” It is time for an “acknowledgment of defeat.”
This is a refinement and extension of Bill’s position in response to new circumstances. It’s not a case in which a full-throated supporter of the war turned on it and came out for an immediate withdrawal. He wasn’t a full-throated supporter of the war, and he hasn’t (yet?) come out for immediate withdrawal. Still, his pronouncement strikes me as important (even allowing for the bias that comes from working in the House of Buckley).
I myself think that Bill’s conclusion is premature. It could very well be vindicated by events, although obviously I hope it won’t be.
In other words, the lefties who are trying to spin this as being the same as Howard Dean’s position on the Iraq war are incorrect. Howard Dean was never a supporter of the Iraq war from the word go. Buckley’s position has gradually changed over time. It wasn’t a case of going directly from staunch support to believing we lost.
Others blogging about this: Captain Ed, Mark Noonan at Blogs For Bush, Flopping Aces, Decision ‘08 (preachin’ to the lefty “Bush supporters are cultists” whiners - heh), UNCoRRELATED, Below The Beltway
Related Toldjah So post:
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“In other words, the lefties who are trying to spin this as being the same as Howard Dean’s position on the Iraq war are incorrect. ”
Also a skeptic for a long time.
Comment by andrew @ 2/26/2006 - 4:01 pm
You have to admit that when Bill Buckley openly defects from the cause and declares the mission a failure, it puts the war hawks and “true believers” in bit of an awkward position.
I don’t know what Howard Dean has to do with this other than providing a bit of deflection. I’m not aware of the “leftie spin” you refer to. Most lib/Dems are quite happy to let Buckley’s statement stand on its own merits. No spin required.
Comment by Red Tory @ 2/26/2006 - 5:06 pm
andrew: “Also a skeptic for a long time. ”
ST: No. Howard Dean has never been an Iraq war supporter.
RT: “I don’t know what Howard Dean has to do with this other than providing a bit of deflection. I’m not aware of the “leftie spin” you refer to.”
ST: LINK
Comment by Sister Toldjah @ 2/26/2006 - 5:20 pm
Linking to Greenwald’s site to prove there is a “leftie spin” about Dean vis-a-vis Buckley’s accurate assessment, does not prove your point. Greenwald is not a leftie. I’ve read his blog since its inception, and a good number of his views could not be characterized as left. (He has made it very clear he thinks those Danish cartoons should be broadcast far and wide, and that there is a big problem with Muslim extremists chilling speech by, you know, killing people. He also wrote a post condemning fashionable, European anti-Americanism.)
Opposing Bush does not ipso facto render one a leftie. Indeed, I’m libertarian and I oppose Bush because (among other things) he is a populist, and populism is not conservative in the ways I like conservatism.
Comment by Mona @ 2/26/2006 - 6:39 pm
“Linking to Greenwald’s site to prove there is a “leftie spin” about Dean vis-a-vis Buckley’s accurate assessment, does not prove your point. Greenwald is not a leftie. I’ve read his blog since its inception, and a good number of his views could not be characterized as left.”
LOL. Surrrre he’s not!
Comment by Sister Toldjah @ 2/26/2006 - 6:44 pm
“ST: No. Howard Dean has never been an Iraq war supporter.”
Right. He’s always been a skeptic. A skeptic for a long time.
I think its fantastic that when 1 group mentions that WFB is against the war, this is dismissed by pointing that he has been against the war for a while. That logic doesn’t quite work.
Comment by andrew @ 2/26/2006 - 6:50 pm
My contention all along…
People can’t get over that the decision was made. It was made people. We are going on three years past that decision. We can’t just implant Saddam back in power and leave. We need to be RESPONSIBLE and do right as we did post WW2 for Japan and Germany.
Q1: What would make you people who are against the war happy?
Q2: What should we do now that we are in a war you don’t want to be in from today onward?
I’d like to know.
Comment by Baklava @ 2/26/2006 - 6:53 pm
andrew: “Right. He’s always been a skeptic. A skeptic for a long time.
I think its fantastic that when 1 group mentions that WFB is against the war, this is dismissed by pointing that he has been against the war for a while. That logic doesn’t quite work. ”
ST: You know what, andrew? I truly do now believe that you really can’t possibly be as naive and ill-informed as you let on here at the board: it’s deliberate. Howard Dean has NEVER SUPPORTED THE IRAQ WAR - DIDN’T THINK WE EVER NEEDED TO BE THERE. WFB DID support the Iraq war initially but was a skeptic of it shortly thereafter, when it became clearer that the WMD we thought would be there were not.
Got it? Don’t badmouth my logic when you’ve got a high mountain to climb when it comes to ever making sense!
Comment by Sister Toldjah @ 2/26/2006 - 6:54 pm
Andrew wrote, “That logic doesn’t quite work.
What logic would work for you…. That he supported it (not fact) until this latest mosque bombing and now he’s convinved it’s the wrong war at the wrong time?
Sorry reporting facts is what’s the right thing to do and the legacy media seems to be not all over it.
Comment by Baklava @ 2/26/2006 - 6:54 pm
“. Howard Dean has NEVER SUPPORTED THE IRAQ WAR - DIDN’T THINK WE EVER NEEDED TO BE THERE. WFB DID support the Iraq war initially but was a skeptic of it shortly thereafter, when it became clearer that the WMD we thought would be there were not.”
Both have been skeptical of the war for a long time. Dean was first to reach that opinion. I don’t see whats the big deal that people are realizing he was right.
I don’t see how it helps the holdouts on the war to point out that WFB has for awhile now seen that this war was wrong.
Comment by andrew @ 2/26/2006 - 7:11 pm
The term ‘deliberately obtuse’ comes to mind here. I advise you to straighten up, andrew, or maybe another mini-break might be in order for you.
Comment by Sister Toldjah @ 2/26/2006 - 7:13 pm
Andrew wrote, “I don’t see how it helps the holdouts on the war to point out that WFB has for awhile now seen that this war was wrong.
I don’t see how it helps to for 3 years continue to be against a war in spite of the fact that the decision was made 3 years ago. Move on!
You can’t move time backwards.
Comment by Baklava @ 2/26/2006 - 7:15 pm
If I am not mistaken, Dean came out as severely against the war during the elections, mainly cause he needed an edge.
Not that it did him any good mind you.
YEEEEEAAAAARRRRRGGGGHHH!!!
Comment by sanity @ 2/26/2006 - 7:27 pm
When you make a very big mistake, especially one that causes death, it is best to review, in depth, how the mistake happened so that it will never happen again. Two types of people supported this war: those that should have known better and the rest of you. WFB, should have known better and will now pay a price for his “error”. bush is in the same catagory. The news media should have known better and have tried to repent so they will get a bye. Except for FOX News. Regular citizens were lied to and manipulated as was the military so they are innocences. Peace
Comment by steve @ 2/26/2006 - 7:29 pm
“The term ‘deliberately obtuse’ comes to mind here.”
Oh I get what you’re saying. WFB used to be for the war. Now he has come around to Dean’s position on it. WFB is a conservative: his mind moves slow to the correct position. He was opposed to the Civil rights movement. Just like the Iraq war it took him a while.
“I don’t see how it helps to for 3 years continue to be against a war in spite of the fact that the decision was made 3 years ago.”
Because we’re still making decisions about this war.
Comment by andrew @ 2/26/2006 - 7:30 pm
We are talking 3 years ago still Andrew? It isn’t “now” he has come around to Dean’s position. Sheesh.
Get over it already. You just disagreed with the decision that was made 3 years ago.
Yes. We are still making decsison. Not to cut and run. We are making that decision daily.
Good thing also. And the increase in troops this year was made by the generals (highlighting that Bush has said that it is up to the generals they get what they want).
The pentagon (unknown to liberals) plans the war and carryies it out (unknown to liberals) and Bush has left it up to the experts to continue making the right decisions.
You just don’t like them.
Comment by Baklava @ 2/26/2006 - 7:34 pm
“Get over it already. You just disagreed with the decision that was made 3 years ago.”
Um, that decision is still here. With us.
“The pentagon (unknown to liberals) plans the war and carryies it out (unknown to liberals) and Bush has left it up to the experts to continue making the right decisions.”
So we can’t blame Bush for how things have turned out? ok. I won’t
Comment by andrew @ 2/26/2006 - 7:40 pm
Um. That decison was made. We have removed the government and now can’t leave it. Just like we didn’t leave Japan and Germany after removing their government.
So you can’t blame Bush for how things have turned out?
No. You can’t. He didn’t plan the war. Liberals who don’t know this insist that he planned and carried out the war. It only shows liberals lack of knowledge. The pentagon has hundreds of plans that are ready for whoever is president for a number of countries. Bush had repeatedly after chosing an option chosen allowed the generals in the field (not others) to choose what they need/want.
Comment by Baklava @ 2/26/2006 - 8:22 pm
Mr.Buckley is simply a man with an opinion. He puts his pants on one leg at a time, like everyone else. He is free to change his mind for whatever reason he sees fit and says so. It’s America, that sort of thing is common.
His past efforts are why his opinion has as much respect as it does. It doesn’t guarantee that whatever he thinks or his words spoken are facts, true or the right thing to do. We will disagree on to proceed as a normal function in the decision making process. My opinion on Mr. Buckley is more inline with Severian’s 2/24/06 11:51 post. I have no problem cutting him loose, so to speak. If you have some kind of metaphorical gangrene attached to your body like a Sheehan for example, open the gate and let her do a little free range (until and if she has a salvageable mind).
The WOT will not end in Iraq or soon. When the timing is right to move on from Iraq and no sooner, had damn well better be the answer, when referencing the scale back in Iraq . The WMD moved by Russian forces into Syria, apparently don’t count as WMD’s in Mr. Buckleys mind, or did I miss something there.
Comment by forest hunter @ 2/26/2006 - 8:37 pm
“Um. That decison was made. We have removed the government and now can’t leave it.”
Of course not. We broke it, we’re responsible for fixing it.
“No. You can’t. He didn’t plan the war.”
Yup. No responsibility for it.
Comment by andrew @ 2/26/2006 - 8:45 pm
Just to clarify Baklava…are you maintaining that due to the fact the war department (or whomever) “planned and carried out” the war and not President Bush himself, it is the war dept and not the President who should shoulder the blame for any mistakes…or more percisely, for the position in which we now find ourselves?
Comment by CB Howell @ 2/26/2006 - 8:49 pm
oops..”precisely”
Comment by CB Howell @ 2/26/2006 - 8:53 pm
He has said words of responsibility for making the decision.
But you… you will rag on that decision for the next 3 years???
What’s the purpose? It’s like ragging on the decision to remove Germany or Japan’s government from power. We made it and you should back the reconstruction because it’s IN OUR BEST INTERESTS
Comment by Baklava @ 2/26/2006 - 8:57 pm
“But you… you will rag on that decision for the next 3 years??? ”
‘rag’? We’re still in a war. He’s still saying he was right. The war is something now, not something from years ago.
“We made it and you should back the reconstruction because it’s IN OUR BEST INTERESTS”
It sure is in our interests to get out of this mess.
Comment by andrew @ 2/26/2006 - 9:02 pm
“He’s still saying he’s right”
That my friend is how immature you are. You want to control him and make him say he was wrong and what good would that do? What president would do that no matter how many Andrew’s of the world insist. Grow up.
“It sure is in our interests to get out of this mess”
Now you are thinking of now. I see you growing up already…
In order to get out we need to do what we did with Japan and Germany and stick to it with the least amount of you folks giving aid and comfort to the enemy….
Comment by Baklava @ 2/26/2006 - 9:32 pm
“That my friend is how immature you are. You want to control him and make him say he was wrong and what good would that do?”
So long as he argues he’s right, its awright to argue he’s wrong. Its today we still discuss the war.
” In order to get out we need to do what we did with Japan and Germany and stick to it with the least amount of you folks giving aid and comfort to the enemy….”
Oh I’m giving aid and comfort? Great. Come and give me my death penalty for treason.
Comment by andrew @ 2/26/2006 - 9:36 pm
It’s awright?
No. It’s not really. You are hurting the effort.
It’s today we discuss reconstruction and how much better off the Iraqi’s are.
Q: Oh I’m giving aid and comfort?
A: Yes.
Comment: Come and give me my death penalty for treason.
Reply: No. I’d rather have you grow up and stop being so detrimental to the U.S.’s interestes. But you want to act in Andrew’s interests…
Comment by Baklava @ 2/26/2006 - 9:52 pm
Citizen’s Band wrote, “Just to clarify Baklava…are you maintaining that due to the fact the war department (or whomever) “planned and carried out” the war and not President Bush himself, it is the war dept and not the President who should shoulder the blame for any mistakes
First, it’s the pentagon or “Defense Department” not “War Department” as not very funnily called it.
Second, Mistakes? You can Monday morning quarterback any military action. We lost more soldiers in a month’s period in Vietnam than this war in Iraq. We lost more soldiers in certain week’s periods in WW2. While you want to act all smart being a monday morning quarterback, rest assured, it doesn’t make you look smart at all. It just makes you look like you disagreed with going to war. That decision my friend was 3 years ago. That’s being “stuck on ——”. You fill in the blank. You like being stuck? Or you want to fast forward to what we do now?
Comment by Baklava @ 2/26/2006 - 9:57 pm
Heck you can summarize this whole thing.
Majority of Democrats, especially far left liberals are still bemoaning why we went in, and the only “plan” they have is to pull out and leave. Immediately.
Majority of Republicans tend to be concentrating on what the troops need, how to bring both sides together in IRaq, helping form the Government there, talking to the troops and getting progress on how things are going so they can plan the slow withdrawl of troops from Iraq as the Iraqi Military becomes more and more dominant and can handle things on thier own.
We still get those who bemoan why we went in but they fail to realize what is done is done, we are there NOW and we damn well better realize that fact real quick.
Quit looking to the past and look to what can be done NOW and in the FUTURE. I am fine if and when this is all over with you want to have all the investigations you want, but that should be done AFTER we are out and not while we are still in there.
An immediate withdrawl is not a plan, and most Americans know this.
You want to have a plan, here are some clues on what should be done:
* Don’t say you support the troops if you don’t support the mission they are on. The troops aren’t stupid, they know this is rhetoric.
* Send care packages, send Calling Cards, send a thank you note to a veteran who is in the hospital. Do NOT send a fake card thanking a wounded veteran for killing women and children. That is plain ignorant and disgusting.
* TALK to the troops. You want to know what is going on? Talk to the troops, they have first hand knowledge which is even better than the garbage of negativity we get fed from the media.
* Want to support the troops? See one getting food? Step up and pay for the soldiers food. Show him/her that you care. Believe me, it makes a helluva difference to a soldier to see he has support at home and he is not forgotten.
* Make sure soldiers have what they need. They have enough armor, in fact they have too much in which they have been stripping it off because it bogs them down with too much weight. Find out if they need anything else and if they are not getting it….get your congressman involved.
You want them home? So do I.
They are my brothers and sisters that are over there and I want them home whole and healthy.
But I, like them, know that this needs to be finished. We cannot abandon the Iraqis just when they are starting to take thier first steps. We are there to support them till they can handle being a deomcracy on thier own. They are willing to fight for it. Believe me, they are.
Comment by sanity @ 2/26/2006 - 10:31 pm
What the hell? I just asked for a clarification and with all of your rhetoric bantering you still didn’t answer my question.
I challenge you to search the archives and find so much as one word I have spoken about the war in Iraq. You have no idea what my views are relative to that subject. Fine, poke fun at my inferior intelligence relative to terminology if it gets you off. Even, if you’re so inclined, think up some more elloquent acronym’s to show how clever you are.
But at the end of the day Baklava, all that these things prove is that you’re an insecure bully that is incapable of participating in an open dialog without brow-beating anyone and everyone you inaccurately preceive as thinking differently from yourself.
The worst thing about it is…that you obviously have some talent for the written word and because of this there will always be those that assume you know what you are talking about. But Baklava, anyone can spend “countless hours” in the library ammassing knowledge..facts, figures, even impressive vocabulary…but having knowledge doesn’t make you wise.
Wisdom Baklava, is knowledge and intelligence based on experience and goverened by prudence two things which you obviously failed to gain in your “countless hours” of research.
Comment by CB Howell @ 2/26/2006 - 11:30 pm
As for everyone else, whether you agree or disagree with the reasons we entered Iraq, how the campaign is being run, or what we should do there tomorrow…what good comes from trying to decide ‘when’ Buckley changed his mind about anything? Or whether Howard Dean ever supported the war in the first place? Talk about monday morning quarterbacking!
How about some real solutions? What are your ideas?
See that’s the issue with our current climate. It’s much safer (with poeple like Baklava lurking about) to bash someone else’s ideas than voice your own. I would challenge everyone to make an actual attempt to offer real solutions. Be original, think outside of the box. At the very least you’ll be entertaining to the rest of us and at best, you might actually find the answer to a real problem. You decide.
Comment by CB Howell @ 2/26/2006 - 11:43 pm
“Reply: No. I’d rather have you grow up and stop being so detrimental to the U.S.’s interestes. But you want to act in Andrew’s interests…”
I think its in our interests to fix this mess and to recognize what caused it: wrong decisions.
Comment by andrew @ 2/26/2006 - 11:47 pm
Sannity, nice post re the troops.
It hit the bullseye….Put up or Shut Up!
Comment by CB Howell @ 2/27/2006 - 12:09 am
I don’t know why you would applaud such a juvenile post. Except for the portion about sending supplies and encouragement for the troops, that was drivel. The majority of Republicans seem to be concerned with getting themselves re-elected to Congress is what he should say. The best decision for these troops, especialy the over 25,000 casualities would have been not to have been sent to a war that may prove to only hurt America’s interests. And Democrats stood on the right side of that decision, but obviously from your logic the Republicans didn’t care about the troops.
Comment by Derrick @ 2/27/2006 - 1:24 am
Really Derrick, please provide proof.
The majority of DEMOCRATS are scrambling looking for drift wood amongst thier party. They have run out of ideas and only thing left is retreat, or say “we aren’t Bush”.
Which is what they tried with Kerry.
Kerry was stone fro mthe start, but during that time the mojaority of Democrats and Democrat voters went with him not because of anything special about him, not because he actually had some kind of message or plan, but because “He wasn’t Bush.”
Essentially the drivel is those that walk around saying they support the troops when in fact they speaketh with forked tongues.
If you support the troops, you would support thier mission. The troops believe in thier mission, they are there doing a job and busting hump to do it while we have wankers back at home saying through one side of thier face “we support the troops” then the other side of the face trashing everything they are doing, their efforts, calling it a waste of time, illegal, they are losing, ect.
Yeah that is real support alright.
I have been overseas, I know how hard it is to spend alot of time away from friends and family. I know that knowing you have support back at home for what you do, that your brothers and sisters at home are looking out for you, haven’t forgotten you, means alot.
As an American Soldier, I can tell you this, it is hard not to go up to the nearest idiot who spews forth liberal crapping points and tell him to shut his pie hole.
Everyone has a breaking point, and mine is the soldiers. I could give a crap less about most politicians, and even less of liberal pukes who should have the brains to realize what is at stake and what we are fighting for.
Americas interest would be to iradicate terrorism. Americas interest would be to have Democracy in the middle east, to show Iraq how it will be when under its own control how living without a dictator can be. It will show its neighbors that it is possible.
American intserest is getting rid of a madman, that even the UN knew little about.
Read, educate you self.
Saddam’s WMDs
Saddam had WMDs
Saddam tapes are being translated and we are finding out ALOT more, and even with what has been translated so far is VERY disturbing and that the UN was completely clueless as usual.
Where is the big splash from our ever adhored media types?
ABC? NBC? CNN? CBS? BBC? FOX?
Hello?
Going to love seeing Liberals eat crow.
It’s whats for dinner.
But then again, maybe another week of the VP shooting accident can be played out as something new and we can just let information like this slide…it is after all not very important.
ST sorry for the hard tone in this but it needs to be said.
In essence CB is right on the money.
PUT UP OR SHUTUP.
Leave the mealy mouthed whining pathetic diatribes for another day, get your panties out of a knot and get behind the troops. Quit being two faced little backstabbing wankers and SUPPORT SOMETHING BESIDES DEFEATISM.
As Baklava has said, we are there, quit living in the past and figure out the present and future. You can examine the past all you want when the troops are out of harms way, otherwise your just stuck on stupid by thinking your remarks, the liberal medias remarks, the senators that boloviate hot rushes Ozone depleting gas attacks on the ears of fellow Americans are not depleting the moral of our troops and not giving the terrorists a boost in thier moral seeing how much America is split, how indecisive, and how much America is acting like a paper tiger.
/rant off
Comment by sanity @ 2/27/2006 - 1:55 am
- The left is getting desperate because they’re running out of time, and Zawahari isn’t promulgating the much hoped for “civil war” fast enough, what with elections coming up here in the fall. After spending the past three+ years trying to undercut Bushes efforts in WOT at every turn, and managing to get hung with the “cut and run whimps” label, they need things like the phoney port issue and some sort of massive internal upheaval in Iraq to try to get to the right of Bush, or they know they’re in trouble.
- In the mean time when you see al Qaeda resort to using fanatics/ex-bathists to destroy their own ancient religious holy sites, you get a pretty good idea of how desperate they’ve grown also. If this doesn’t work, and so far its not had the desired effect, theres not a lot of options left.
- Bang
Comment by Big Bang Hunter @ 2/27/2006 - 3:10 am
I still think this may have been a Syria/Iran job.
They have everything ot gain with a Iraq in civil war.
It’s hard ot believe a hundred year old fued between shites and sunnis suddenly remerges….not without some misdirection and help that is.
Comment by sanity @ 2/27/2006 - 3:45 am
- 700 years… right after Mohammud died… but you’re right…
- Bang
Comment by Big Bang Hunter @ 2/27/2006 - 4:27 am
Comment by tommy in nyc @ 2/27/2006 - 8:01 am
CB wrote, “What the hell? I just asked for a clarification and with all of your rhetoric bantering you still didn’t answer my question
I’d have to accept the premise of your question. I didn’t accept it and that’s why I talked about your tendency to Monday morning quarterback. Perfect wars don’t exist. You can always monday morning quarterback. Doesn’t it make you look smart!
CB wrote, “How about some real solutions? What are your ideas?
Get behind the Iraqi people’s independence and the U.S.’s effort to give them their country. Make us look like a unified nation. Your continued Monday morning quarterbacking is the opposite of a solution. It’s harping on yesterday’s “what mistake did we make” questions. We are not in a position of power to change any of that. The military is. They are learning daily. THe generals are not stupid.
CB wrote, “See that’s the issue with our current climate. It’s much safer (with poeple like Baklava lurking about) to bash someone else’s ideas
I’m sorry. What was your idea? As far as bashing, yes, you can say I bashed the question. Smacked it down. The premise was faulty and without perspective. But that bashing was a REACTION to the original bashing. Call the basher bashed if you will.
And really… I’m not intending to bash. I’m simply pointing out that I wish for us to unify and get Iraq independent as quick as possible, have some perspective, and move on in the WOT. Are you up for that? Or do you want to continue playing MMQ?
After reading Sanity’s posts (I’m sanitized), I must say we didn’t come to the same conclusions for solutions for no reason. Sure we may think alike but it truly is what we think we should do as a country. And not for Republicans or Bush. For the BEST INTERESTS of OUR COUNTRY.
Tommy, your post of 8:01 is the EXAMPLE of the wrong way to move forward. It is the exact opposite of Sanity and I’s solution for the future. What do you think your post accomplished? Military folks do have access to the Internet, newspapers, cable news. Not only do I think it’ll work. But it better work or our world will be hurtin’. To have to pull out of Iraq and leave a power vacuum for the neighboring countries and terrorists to take over would be the last thing you Tommy should want to see (unless you like seeing America defeated).
Comment by Baklava @ 2/27/2006 - 8:33 am
Tommy, Cut and Run is not the answer. It didn’t work for Neville Chamberlain and it won’t work for donkeycrats now.
Comment by PCD @ 2/27/2006 - 9:07 am
It’s not the fact that we invaded Iraq that I’m against Bak. It was the how. When we threw Saddam out of Kuwait we had 4x the amount of troops and the support of the international community. So what the heck do the Neo-cons running this country into the ground do? They invade Iraq which is 10 times geographically larger with a force which 375,000 troops fewer with little international support. Then people wonder why there is a power vacuum! We stuck in Iraq period. The other major undereported thing about Iraq is how could possibly trust almost any Iraqi government to run a serious air force. Who would you put in charge of such an organization? Moqutda-Al-Sadr? nuff said……. and wake up this is turning into a fiasco.
Comment by tommy in nyc @ 2/27/2006 - 9:08 am
The US actually did want to finsih this off back when we threw Saddam out of Kuwait, but we did the Global test thing of Kerrys, and listened to the UN and them saying, no farther.
Personally I believe we should have gone the rest of the way. The Iraqis felt like we abandoned them during that time. we promised we would help them and then we turn around and go home. Those that stood up were murdered and jailed or never seen again. That is what they got for the US listening to the UN.
If you listen to the media, yes, Iraq is on fire, every day is murder and mayhem.
Again, talk to the troops. They aren’t re-enlisting in record numbers to go back for no reason. If your life is always in danger or you will be killed, no amount of money being offered will ever offset that risk. They go back because they beleive in what they are doing.
If they believe in it, don’t you think you should give he troops a chance? Listen to what they have to say, believe in them?
Comment by sanity @ 2/27/2006 - 9:16 am
Sanity,
Man..I was going to stay ouy of this one but after reading your diatribe. I felt that I had to point a couple of things out.
First both of the sources you cited as proof that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction were ridiculous.
One source was someones personal weblog not that different than this blog.
The other was an opinion/editorial from an obscure investment online magazine.
Neither source had any basis in fact. Nor any reference to any real facts.
Are you saying that a case war can be made from a weblog?
Are you saying a case for war can be made from an op/ed column?
I am no peace activist. And I believe and have always believed that Iraq was and still is no threat to American security. We went there to steal the oil. Oil is power. Stolen oil allows oil companies to post record profits at the expense of you and I.
It has been almost three years. And we have rebuilt almost nothing. We bomb indiscriminately and then offer to buy our victims “wheelchairs” as a gesture of good will. What makes you think that Abu al Zarqawi even exist? Where the hell are all of these Islamic websites that the Pentagon is always sourcing? I have been looking for years for these websites. We are sacrificing Americans for what in the end will be the biggest heist on human history.
We went there promising to free them of a sadist who used torture, rape and murder to centralize his power. Instead we tortured, raped and murdered to centralize our power.
We could have went Jacksonian on their butts. But it’s not nearly as profitable for Mr. Bushs’ and Mr. Cheneys’ buddies. We could have let the Iraqis have control of their own oil. We did not have to steal it. I am not contending that John Kerry would have done anything differently. He’s a Bonesman. Just like GW. Bush, WJ. Clinton and GHW. Bush. Same a$$holes, different party. What we should be doing is trying to get these scumbag Elis out of our government. They are the epitome of corruption. All of them.
This is not an honorable war.
I don’t care where the troops are. I support them. But part of supporting them is to not let them die for profit. They swore to defend us, took an oath. And no where in that oath was it mentioned that they would defend our corporate interest.
So what if Mr. Buckleys’ position on Iraq has evolved based on fact and reason? It has recently become very clear that the Pentagon has been paying some media oulets to run stories that it provides them with for over 4 years. Rumsfeld said it himself.
Comment by GBA @ 2/27/2006 - 9:18 am
GBA is that your camel toe showing or a lampshade on your head? Hadn’t you heard, OP/ED columns qualify as truths, at least in the minds of the nits at NYT. You spout your inane opinion about going into IRAQ just for the oil profits as if your deranged concepts have anything to do with facts and then proceed to lay into Sanity for not having facts. Your mundane drivel betrays sanity and all those there that believe in their honorable intentions.
Whine on about the time we spent there and rebuilt almost nothing. Go ahead and slam virtually everyone of our people over there bustin’ there ass for dolts like you to sit over here and bitch some more you disgusting [edited - ST] idiot! “This is not an honorable war.” So genius, what does an honorable war look like? You’ve gone way too far with that last blast! Then you have the audacity to lie about “I don’t care where the troops are. I support them.” This may have been one of the lowest backstabbing piles of unadulterated crap that you’ve ever generated.
Bashing Sanity about facts and exposing us all to your factually challenged,disrespectful opinions, is one of the worst things I ever read from you. You don’t normally show such disdain for the Americans over there keeping the lid on this. Are you out of your mind, disrespecting our people with not so much as a by your leave? You owe them an enormous apology you shameless denigrate!
Comment by forest hunter @ 2/27/2006 - 10:04 am
“So what if Mr. Buckleys’ position on Iraq has evolved based on fact and reason?”
- Buckly could argue the pants off of Doris Day. Doesn’t make him right. Just good at verbal debate. Most of us who grew up listening to his form of old school apartheid and poorly desguised rascist nattering, admired his talking style, and always considered him a high brow conservative version of Gore Vidal, except somewhat less annoying.
- You can generally take what he says with a grain of salt, knowing hes still pissed they didn’t suspend all politiking the day he retired. *chuckle*
- Bang
Comment by Big Bang Hunter @ 2/27/2006 - 10:51 am
How will we know that we are dragging our feet in getting out of Iraq: Something in Iraq will explode. Like the golden dome mosque. The only thing that we control in Iraq, at this point, is our own safe withdrawl. And time for that is running out. Peace
Comment by steve @ 2/27/2006 - 10:53 am
- Oh and GBA. If you’ve been sitting in your ivory tower blissfully unaware that theres a second front in the WOT going on, a battle royal for the high ground in “perceptions” through the willing mendacity of the Liberal MSM press/TV, welcome to the real world and international hard ball politics.
- Always amazing that people that want to pontificate on things, come unarmed with even the most basic understandings.
- Bang
Comment by Big Bang Hunter @ 2/27/2006 - 11:05 am
Here, let me introduce you to some fine folks:
The real news in Iraq
Meet:
Rep. Murtha is causing casualties
Celebrating with Iraqi Policemen
Read the rest here
Meet Lieutenant K
I about died laughing at this one:
Friendly Fire - With Friends like these…
And here is someone who GETS IT!
Read the rest here
This person gets it. He understands.
It should not matter what political affiliation you are, you should be PRO-VICTORY!
Stars and Stripes
Oh those Evil Republicans will DRAFT you, but..but…but….
Look who is renewing the call for a DRAFT for the 3rd time:
Stars and Stripes
Where is the media reports on this?
A 3rd time!
Hollywood wants to make a movie about Iraq called “Over There”. The Soldiers who have seen it say it complete bull**** and hollywood has no clue.
“Thank God that’s over,” said a master sergeant as the credits rolled.
Soldiers say ‘Over There’ is ‘bogus’
Soldiers Diary
Stars and Stripes
Media Slander
Today Show Suprise
Why do I have to read British newspapers to learn about the heroic actions of our troops?
Ack! Sorry got carried away lol.
“Freedom is the natural condition of the human race, in which the Almighty intended men to live. Those who fight the purpose of the Almighty will not succeed. They always have been, they always will be, beaten.” - Abraham Lincoln (Feb 23, 1861)
Comment by sanity @ 2/27/2006 - 11:06 am
Tommy wrote, “They invade Iraq which is 10 times geographically larger with a force which 375,000 troops fewer with little international support. Then people wonder why there is a power vacuum!”
So you didn’t like the invasion even though it went better than most predicted? Wow. And there were more countries helping than in Kuwait. Sure we had to shoulder the bulk of the operations but we were successful. Since the invasion the generals have told the president what they wanted and the president has continued to give the generals how many troops they’ve wanted. Now Tommy comes along and thinks it should be more or less (we don’t know ’cause Tommy’s all over the board on numbers of troops) - great MMQ’ing.
Tommy said, “nuff said……. and wake up this is turning into a fiasco.
Is that what you want? I hope not. You wonder why people call you a defeatist. It’s your irresponsible words during a time of war.
And then GBA with is irresponsibility said, “Instead we tortured, raped and murdered to centralize our power.
I dare you to find a soldier in Iraq and tell him your name and address and tell him that. In fact, tell a bunch of soldiers that. Ergh. I want to call you names. You want to generalize what our Army was prosecuting before the media got a hold of it? You are the worst kind of irresponsible person who will probably never apologize for your words and the harm they do to our country and interests.
And then GBA lied (yes lied - you lied) by saying, “We could have let the Iraqis have control of their own oil. We did not have to steal it.
Good god. We stole Iraqi oil huh. I wish. I wish we had them pay us for freeing them by stealing their oil. Man the irresponsibility. You are definitely against this nation. You spout propoganda in a time of war. This isn’t about Bush GBA. This is about your reckless irresponsibility that hurts this country.
Bak
Comment by Baklava @ 2/27/2006 - 11:21 am
GBA says, “We went there to steal the oil. Oil is power. Stolen oil allows oil companies to post record profits at the expense of you and I.”
Tell me GBA, how much Oil has been stolen from Iraq?
How much have we “taken”?
Give me some proof.
Because even when we were having a crisis, we got a majority of the oil from Russia to help us.
*shakes head sadly*
I didn’t think you would be one of “those” types that think we went to war for oil.
GBA incorrectly says, “It has been almost three years. And we have rebuilt almost nothing. “
And that is what you get, this type of WRONG and INCORRECT information, when you listen to the MSM all the time. Your a fool if you think nothing has been done there.
GBA begins to loose it by saying, “We bomb indiscriminately and then offer to buy our victims “wheelchairs” as a gesture of good will. What makes you think that Abu al Zarqawi even exist?”
Your kidding right?
Cause your begging to sound like Steve now.
Bombing indescriminately? One of the major complaints about the war was that we held back, we were too careful and it dragged out. We took extreme precautions in not targetting civilians, even when the terrorists use them as shields and hostages. You sure your talking about the rgith side and confuse the US troops with the terrorists? Its a common mistake to think the troops are terrorists by the way.
GBA earns the whacko nut job award with saying this, “We went there promising to free them of a sadist who used torture, rape and murder to centralize his power. Instead we tortured, raped and murdered to centralize our power.”
So your saying the troops are over there torturing, raping and murdering Iraqis hmmm?
Jumping of the DEEP END without your waterwings can lead to drowning.
GBA finally comes out hinting at Halliburton by saying, “But it’s not nearly as profitable for Mr. Bushs’ and Mr. Cheneys’ buddies. We could have let the Iraqis have control of their own oil. We did not have to steal it.”
There we have it, we went to war for oil and Halliburton. Skin has been shed and true colors have come through.
The moon is full and the bats are out of the belfry.
Comment by sanity @ 2/27/2006 - 11:24 am
Bang,
There is nothing more powerful and righteous than the truth.
What you are talking about is a perception war of based on the proliferation of lies. They lie and twist the truth. We lie right back and twist the truth.
That is flawed in it’s reasoning right from the word go. You can’t foster good will with lies.
This is strange to some because it is obvious that ill-will can be fostered with lies. Religious zealots have done this evil. We must undo it with truth.
Everyones mother here will probably agree with the statement that “two wrongs don’t make a right”.
We need to be above board if we are to prevail. I just hope it’s not too late to come clean.
Comment by GBA @ 2/27/2006 - 11:30 am
All you got to do is look at the recent riots over the mosque bombings Bak and you’ll start to figure out once our military precence is diminished enough various factions in Iraq are going to be at each others throats. it is as easy to figure out as 2+2=4
Comment by tommy in nyc @ 2/27/2006 - 11:36 am
GBA LIED by saying, “It has been almost three years. And we have rebuilt almost nothing. ”
This is a habitual pattern on your part. You act like there is budget cuts when social and entitlement progams and education and veterans programs have ALL increased over the years. You act like there is no rebuilding.
New water treatment plant
Comment by Baklava @ 2/27/2006 - 11:38 am
Yes, look at the mosque bombing.
Who was the mahor players in calming that?
I don’t think it was the military.
I know it was the Iraqis.
Comment by sanity @ 2/27/2006 - 11:39 am
Hang on Sanity,
You just dropped a bomb on me. It is going to take me a while to read all of this. But I will certainly give you the respect of reading all of it. I would only hope that you would offer me the same respect.
Comment by GBA @ 2/27/2006 - 11:40 am
Lets see, if we went to war for oil for Halliburton, wouldn’t have been easier ot just give all the billions spent on rebuilding and the war directly to Halliburton?
Its all about making Halliburton money right?
Love how they still say it is Cheneys comapny, Cheney and Bushes ‘friends’. Realizing of course Lady Byrd (D) has controlling interest in Halliburton.
By the way, record oil rpofits is because there are more drivers, and more people driving.
Want to socket to the Oil companies? Walk to work.
Comment by sanity @ 2/27/2006 - 11:43 am
- GBA is a joke, and in bad need of some professional help. He claims to be a business owner. If so, and his posts are any indication of his mental state, I fear for the welfare of his employees.
- Aside from that, if hes just the usual lefty attention whore, he needs some new material. Even the Kos Kiddies have stopped floating the “WE DID IT FOR THE OIL” babble, finally realizing it looks a bit stupid in the face of Fuel prices these days. That and they got tired of people just outright laughing at them every time they said it.
- Bang
Comment by Big Bang Hunter @ 2/27/2006 - 11:43 am
New irrigation pump
Military Hospital
Sewer system
Electricity
Comment by Baklava @ 2/27/2006 - 11:44 am
baklava
Wow!
A whopping four projects.
Actually we have done alot than this but given the size and magnitude of the destruction it’s a drop in the bucket because we promised alot more and they expected alot more.
Given the fact that we have been there for years I am not nearly as impressed as you are.
This is the greatest industrialized nation in the world and this is the best we can do?
We have certainly spent enough money to rebuild that entire country. So why is it not rebuit yet?
BTW it’s a “maternity” hospital not a military hospital.
Comment by GBA @ 2/27/2006 - 11:56 am
Here is a a bit more:
Link
Rebuilding Iraq a big, slow job
Under constant threat of sabotage, up to 200 U.S. companies are hard at work patching a nation together.
Link
Rebuilding of Iraq: Status of Funding and Reconstruction.
Link (PDF Format)
Additional Contractor information here
Ok, with that I am going to go fall on my face and die for a few hours.
I pulled a 12 hour shift throughout the night, and got home, got the kids up adn fed and let wife sleep in. At this point I have now been up about 20 hrs, 2nd day in a row.
So I bid thee farewell and well rejoin and read when I have the keyboard marks off my forehead.
Comment by sanity @ 2/27/2006 - 12:10 pm
GBA wrote without much regards for perspective, “Wow! A whopping four projects”
I could spoon feed you the over a hundred more or you could apologize for your original claim, ““It has been almost three years. And we have rebuilt almost nothing. ”
GBA again with his defeatism said, “This is the greatest industrialized nation in the world and this is the best we can do?
Again. Why don’t you stick your face over there with your name and address on it and tell these people this. I just don’t understand your very negative attitude. It doesn’t help. You are the problem not the people working to make things better. Tell me how you could be the solution with your negativism and lack of perspective. You are the one who made the initial claim that you are backing off of.
I’m not sure what you are trying to accomplish. Are you trying to make us feel bad about all that we are doing even though progress is being made because GBA sitting there typing on his keyboard thinks we should’ve done more by now. Sheesh. Now reconcile with your OTHER LIES that we pointed out and quit with your pattern. It’s terrible. It does nothing for anyone.
Comment by Baklava @ 2/27/2006 - 12:44 pm
baklava,
Read the Teguba report.
You like numbers. Check out the spending.
We’re in Iraq. The least we could do is do a good job. The miltary is doing a fine job. It’s the administration that is corrupt and inefficient. Private miltary contrators(mercenaries) and sadistic intelligence operatives are not helping us in Iraq or anywhere else.
I find it a hell of a position to be morally as an American. Almost every American supports the military. But many Americans don’t trust the leadership. It’s a quagmire.
If you have hundreds of examples of completed projects in Iraq. Then bring them on. I always apologize when I am proven wrong.
I even read your suggestion of Michael Medved. I strongly disagree with alot of what he says but I checked it his whole site at your request.
Comment by GBA @ 2/27/2006 - 12:58 pm
GBA is just like every other moonbat leftie, if it isn’t utopia, it isn’t good enough. Only GBA adds, if Bush did it or touched it, it is bad.
Comment by PCD @ 2/27/2006 - 1:08 pm
bang,
hey pal. If you want to come visit me at my shop, you are more than welcome. I’ll even pick you up at the airport. I run a good business and I am proud of it.I love to show it off.
You think I’m nuts? Baklava is the Arabic word for nuts.
You want my address an telephone? I would be glad to give it to you. You don’t even have to give me yours. I am without fear of you or anyone else.
You want to threaten me?
If that is your best I am unimpressed.
Comment by GBA @ 2/27/2006 - 1:14 pm
- No one I know of has “threatened you” GBA. Unless calling you out on your siditious bloviating against all things American is “threatening you”.
- Childish tantrums is the last refuge of cowens, or didn’t your mommy ever teach you that. Grow up.
- Bang
Comment by Big Bang Hunter @ 2/27/2006 - 1:29 pm
GBA, I did read the Teguba report. Where in there did it say, “we tortured, raped and murdered to centralize our power.
It’s like saying. We “targeted” journalists. Sure there were jounalists killed but you turn it into an irresponsible “targeting” type accusation by saying we tortured, murdered, raped to centralize our power. That would mean that it was institutionalized plan of strategy to centralize our power. Where is your evidence GBA that we had such a plan. You have none. You continue with our list of inaccurate accusations. When you are called on it you attack us. You have no backup for your ridiculous claims. The people who did do wrong are being prosecuted and were being prosecuted before the media got a hold of it. That’s institutionalized discipline for people committing wrongful acts.
GBA wrote, “I always apologize when I am proven wrong.
Then stop being lazy, change your sources of misinformation and stop making reckless irresponsible charges that can’t be backed up with fact. My job is NOT to dispute all of your false allegations. I did enough disputing for you to know that you were WAY off base. You are being told so and in spite of it you are asking for 100’s more links. You are lazy and irresponsible in that case.
Comment by Baklava @ 2/27/2006 - 1:29 pm
Baklava,
I am on it. I just got off the phone with Theresa Shope from the State Department. She is in Iraq right now. She is going to send me all the links and information I need tomorrow or late tonight. It’s nighttime there and I think I interrupted her dinner.
We’ll see then what is what. And it will be definitive. Straight from the source.
So keep your pants on. At least until then. If you want her phone number you can call her too.
Theresa Shope, Iraq Reconstruction Management Office shopetr@state.gov (914) 360-3777
Comment by GBA @ 2/27/2006 - 1:48 pm
- Well if the left is depending on a civil war in Iraq, they better hope it happens soon. Zarqawi’s chief aide just got nailed in Ramadi, along with a dozen others, by Iraqi militia no less. If hes actually in Iraq his days are numbered.
- Bang
Comment by Big Bang Hunter @ 2/27/2006 - 2:15 pm
Oh good. Maybe you should let her know some of the irresponsible comments you’ve made here. Will you do that?
Comment by Baklava @ 2/27/2006 - 2:35 pm
Baklava,
I already told her about our discussion.
Why do you think she is going out of her way to help me with the facts?
According to her the question is complicated because of interagency projects. USACE, USAID, IMF, World Bank and NGOs’ all have projects going on. She even stated that they have a massive amount of projects in the works. And what is completed does not fairly represent what is being done. I said that “it has been nearly three years” and she said “I know”. She then also stated that there is a trend to directly contract with Iraqis given the past experiences and cost overruns with non-Iraqi contractors. She also said and I quote” 2006 is going to be banner year for Iraq, it will be a shining example for the region”.
So I had that discussion with her.
So I think I need to apologize for my statement about the reconstruction efforts in Iraq in advance. So I am sorry for that statement. But even with that the accounting does not match the progress.
Saddam never said why he did what he did to the Iraqi people either. But we all know why he did it. Human rights atrocities are not something to be proud enough to document. Who is going to stand up and say I am proud of committing crimes against humanity? That’s a poor argument on that one. All of the individuals that we have prosecuted have all contended that they were acting under orders. Even that Welshofer fellow said the same thing when he killed a uniformed Iraqi Air Force general in October of 2003. He was aquitted even after admitting he killed him by deliberately suffocating him.
It has been my observation that fighting terrorism by using terroristic tactics does not work very well. I think it makes things worse than they need to be.
I would love to forward her email to you baklava when I get it.
Comment by GBA @ 2/27/2006 - 3:23 pm
GBA said, “I already told her about our discussion.”
You said that you stated, “It has been almost three years. And we have rebuilt almost nothing. We bomb indiscriminately”
It doesn’t sound like you did. It wouldn’t take but a second to scoff at that.
I am amused that you had your defeatist language with her saying, “I said that “it has been nearly three years” It takes longer to build one bridge in America most times. It’s a lack of perspective I say and it doesn’t help anyone for you to be spouting off like that.
I just got to your apology, “So I think I need to apologize for my statement about the reconstruction efforts in Iraq in advance. So I am sorry for that statement. But even with that the accounting does not match the progress. ”
You continue with your defeatism however and your other irresponsible statements still stand.
And you continue with another horrible implication, “It has been my observation that fighting terrorism by using terroristic tactics does not work very well.
Who are you accusing my responsible friend? Is there someone that isn’t being prosecuted that should be? Let us know so that we can forward on the evidence that a soldier of ours is terrorizing and not being held accountable.
GBA wrote, “I would love to forward her email to you baklava when I get it.
It’d take a whole year of being responsible on your part before I give you my email address. Call it the sleeper cell technique for you if you want.
Comment by Baklava @ 2/27/2006 - 3:39 pm
Baklava,
I could care less about your position now. You obviously have no desire to be reasonable. It only takes 5 minutes to set up an email account on yahoo.
Yes. I am indeed critical of hows and whys of what we are doing in Iraq. So are alot of other people. We want honest oversight and transparency in the accounting. I don’t want to hear that our peopl