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Audacity of Truth
Spinsational:
"We were so busy just getting stuff done and dealing with the immediate crises that were in front of us that I think we lost some of that sense of speaking directly to the American people about what their core values are and why we have to make sure those institutions are matching up with those values."
-Obama, explaining recent Democrat losses, 1/20/10
Velvet Lair- The sexiness of winning the battle of good versus evil January 26, 2010
- Ever wonder why? January 12, 2010
- The decision to bench Peyton Manning: Right or wrong? December 28, 2009
- Is my dad turning into a metrosexual? November 24, 2009
- My “Things To Do For Christmas” list November 23, 2009
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Pam says, “Why do the politicians need to get involved in school districts? This is the job of the parents working with the police who, together, demand action of the school system. The parents should be the ones that are in the face of the school administrators. Day in and day out. On the phone, and in their offices. Get with local News Channels. You would be amazed at how something like a story on TV, pulls a community together to demand change in the system! The liberals did this and look how they destroyed public education. But they got their way!”
True, but public schools do have problems, and are federally funded, unless you are suggesting cutting federal involvement out completely.
My thoughts is that instead of always throwing more money at schools because they think that will solve the problem, perhaps if they had to experience what parents and their children go through in the public schools, they would take a more active role in looking at public schools or at least more interest in getting the problems fixed – more than just throwing more money at it.
Pam says, “As for their kids being in private school..we don’t pay for that. We pay them a salary and they can spend it as they see fit. If they are receiving a free education under suspicious circumstances..that is another story. But if people can afford to send their kids to private schools, that’s their business. They still pay local property taxes that fund public schools.”
I understand that, and most of what I said was rhetorical in a sarcastic or ironic sort of way, that if they had to experience what the ‘peons’ have to go through and what their children have to put up with, that perhaps more things would be done to fix problems instead of just throwing money at something like that is all that is needed to fix it.
Pam says “Bring them down? People aspire to go up. Everything you listed are benefits that people recieve from their employers or save for throughout their lifetime. They are benefits not something guaranteed under the COTUS.”
Again I know it is the striving to reach upwards and beyond, but as I said, it was in an ironic sense that if they had to experience wha many think are beneath them, they might actually do more than sining off a blank check to fix problems.
Pam says, If your arguement is with the benefits of Congress..I agree. I don’t think they should have control of deciding their pay and benefits. We the people should and it should be on the Presidential Election Ballot every 4 years.”
Actually I was thinking about these senators and congressman as I wrote this, thinking of how many bounce thousands of dollars in checks and nothing happens to them, thinking of how they have someonething completely different for their retirement than Social Security (so what is the big deal to them to fix it if it doesn’t affect them?), voting for their own raises, sometimes in the middle of the night to bypass the scrutiny of the public…
I am sorry if it seemed to get beyond that, but I am tired of the disconnect between our representatives in Congress and the Senate and the rest of us.
I am tired of them not listening.
Especially since in one of the hottest debated items of this century (immigration) they ignored what most the nation wanted, and essentially gave us all the finger in a vote for immigration that barely does anything of what we wanted.
Again, there is a big disconnect between ‘We the People’ and our representative…….
In other words, traditional values like duty, honor, country, hard work, humility, are all alien concepts to her, how dare we try and indoctrinate kids with such evil ideas.
1. Duty, honor, country, hard work, humility are, as you say, concepts. They are not political concepts. They are not American concepts. They are neither conservative nor liberal. They are concepts that have existed throughout human history. They do not become political until they get defined in the context of specific policies.
2. “Traditional” refers to a body of concepts, beliefs, or practices built up over time. It doesn’t mean “better” or “more valid.” There are other concepts — secularism, egalitarianism, cultural relativism, knowledge, freedom, democracy, reason, dissent — that are just as traditional as the ones you named. These concepts have come to be identified as “liberal” and thus “bad” in the thinking of neoconservatives; but in fact, they are the values of the Enlightenment and our country was founded on them.
No concept is evil until it gets yoked to an evil policy or intention.
Liberals in general are the most depressed, miserable, unhappy, constantly complaining people I’ve ever met. Reagan pointed out that Democrats act like every day is April 15th, and Republicans act like every day is the 4th of July. Misery not only loves company, it demands it, and that describes the liberal attitude too well.
You’ve got to be kidding. What is this litany of grievances you regale us with then, Severian? It sounds dangerously like complaining, discontent, and misery to me.
Giving the kids the answers is cheating just as much as giving them palm notes for during the test. You aren’t teaching them how to reason out a problem to reach the answer.
That’s not what test prep does, and I’ll bet you know it. Test prep teaches kids how to figure out the correct answer on a multiple choice standardized test if they don’t know it. Test prep teaches kids how to handle test anxiety and it teaches kids logical strategies for figuring out the correct answer instead of spending too much time trying to figure it out if they’re not sure. You call that “reasoning it out.” Everyone I know calls it test prep.
One thing you have not touched on, or maybe I overlooked it, is the fact that the failing schools are predominately in lower income areas.
Yes, of course the failing schools are predominantly in lower income areas. Does that mean it’s a problem the rest of us don’t have to take seriously?
And yes, I did touch on the fact that failing schools are predominantly in low-income areas. Extensively.
Kathy, like most arrogant liberals puts her kids in private schools, not the public ones run by NEA teachers and administrators.
My daughter (one daughter, one child, not “kids” plural) has gone to public schools her entire life, as I made clear throughout this entire discussion. Not once did I ever write anything that could have been taken to mean my daughter goes to private school.
Is this the conservative value of honor at work here — making up something and claiming another person said it when you know they didn’t?
Of course, but they don’t have to have letter (traditional) grades. My daughter went to a public Montessori school So you sent your kid to a private school, not public, or did your child attend public schools later on? Yes, unfortunately, the grades do need to be traditional in the public schools. (Ital mine; boldface Pam’s.)
I just saw this. Pam, you pasted my comment, but you don’t appear to have read it. Or maybe you read it, but you didn’t understand it. I told you, Pam, that my daughter went to a PUBLIC Montessori school. It is one of the only public Montessori schools in the country. It is in Montclair, NJ. It is called Edgemont School. If you would like to check all of this out; if checking all of this out would help you to comprehend that my daughter went to a PUBLIC elementary school, you should do that.
My child has attended public schools her entire life. Not just elementary school. She has never spent one day as a student in a private school.
Can I make this any clearer?
P.S. to the above.
Pam, you are wrong that report cards have to be traditional letter grades in public schools. I think what you mean is that you think they SHOULD be letter grades in public schools. However, it is clearly not true that report cards HAVE to be always letter grades in public schools, because my daughter went to a public elementary school where letter grades were NOT used.
You may be of the opinion that this is appalling and evil, but nevertheless it IS a fact that my daughter went to a public elementary school that did not give letter grades.
Sanity- Then in response to your 1st post, I know that I do not disagree with you.
Yes, of course the failing schools are predominantly in lower income areas. Does that mean it’s a problem the rest of us don’t have to take seriously?
Well of course we should take it seriously. Hence we have the NCLB.
“Traditional” refers to a body of concepts, beliefs, or practices built up over time. It doesn’t mean “better” or “more valid.”
No, the fact that they have worked and produced honorable, capable citizens out of our youth, for centuries means nothing, at least to the liberal mind. You and your fellow travelers sure have refined the ability to see what you want to see, not what is, to a fine art. Liberalism/socialism, despite marked, highly visible failures every time they have been applied, only means they haven’t been done “right” yet, we just gotta keep trying whereas the myriad successes of capitalism/conservative/traditional approaches means they are just tradition, doesn’t mean they actually work!
Yeah, got it, that makes total sense.
There’s a reason that traditions become traditions, and that’s because the vast majority of people, over the vast majority of times, have found them to work well. The liberal/socialist approach to education has most definitely NOT worked as well as the traditional approach, but your response to that is that we need to be even more radically liberal/socialist, rather than return to what actually was proven to work.
Yeah, and Stalin didn’t really kill 20 million people, and the fact that the liberal/leftist/anti-war moonbats caused the US to cut and run in Vietnam, and cut off all support to the S.Vietnamese government, had nothing at all to do with the subsequent brutal communist uprising that caused the death of 3-4 million people. Yeah, that’s the ticket!
You may love living in a leftist fantasyland, but please please stop trying to drage the rest of us kicking and screaming into your fantasy world.
And I still haven’t heard any valid ideas out of you on how to solve the education problem, just continued complaints and dismissive nonsense about approaches that we know work. Typical liberal response, all whine, no cheese.
Kathy- I did check it out and according to the Board of Ed, your childs school is the only public Montessori school in the state of New Jersey. So it is a public school. The school assesses children in kindergarden to see where they fit in, and the child is placed in the appropriate class. I also saw their attitude toward the NCLB to be right on track.
I like how Kathy redefines words to suit her artuments and purposes, like Clinton redefining what the meaning of “is” is.
Kathy, you are the lowest form of liberal life on the internet. No matter what it shown to you, you say, “NO, this is how it is in my world”, yet your world is not the world out side the sight of your Clinton issue Rose (Law Firm)colored glasses.
You are a waste of bandwidth.
You have an exclusive setup with a Montessori school set up with in your public schools. Well, sister, let me clue you in on something. THAT IS AN ADMISSION OF FAILURE BY YOUR LOCAL SCHOOLS! THE NEA PARADIGM DOES NOT WORK. YOU ADMIT IT BY SENDING YOUR KID TO THAT SPECIAL SCHOOL!
One thing I have yet to hear discussed is our culture now, and how the children interact with it.
Back in when we went to school, things were alot different, and most likely the parents were also.
We used to have more time outside, TV was not allowed on all he time, there was discipline in the home, for the most part children were doing the homework before doing anything else.
Now we have where if you spank a child you get hauled into court.
You have teachers that barely know the material they are teaching.
You have kids who disrespect the teachers commonly calling them “B*tches, Hos, ect”.
You have a generation that thinks being pimps and hos is something grand and want to be that. With rap stars they want to be like, and movies like 50 Cent’s movie “Get Rich or Die trying” that they see as the type of culture they are in.
You have children now want emulate rap stars and thugs than something more ‘wholesome’.
You have children now that think if you ‘disrespect’ them that they can bring a gun to school and shoot you.
You have children now that do not really know what manners are, do not know what respect is…
You have children that have sex at ages commonly around 11-14, but many times earlier than that.
You have children that think a BJ is not sex.
You have parents that work too much and work with their children less.
You have parents that do not actively work with their children.
I believe there is more to the school problem than just teachers and agendas, that it is more of our culture today, the culture our kids evolve around, how they interact with it and become part of it.
I believe there is more to the school problem than just teachers and agendas, that it is more of our culture today, the culture our kids evolve around, how they interact with it and become part of it.
Absolutely, this is the payoff of almost 50 years of liberalism, socialism, and Great Society at work. It’s produced a disfunctional culture, but it’s still all the fault of the evil Neocons! Bwahahahahah!
The liberal/leftist/socialists have worked hard to dismantle everything of value in this society, everything and every attitude and every insitution that made this country great (just look at their continued assault against the Boy Scouts, how dare they try and teach self reliance, honor, duty, and morals!). And then they decry those same ideals and institutions as the cause of all the problems. Sinister and stupid together make a bad bad mix.
The left, with their anti-war hysteria, is directly responsible for the pullout in Vietnam, and thus the deaths of 3-4 million people. But no, they pat themselves on the back with self righteous glee that they “stopped the war.” Bull, they helped and are complicent in the deaths of millions.
Now they want to do the same in Iraq, following the Vietnam model. Completely ignoring that they are following the same template of actions and attitudes that resulted in millions of deaths before. But, hey, what do they care about mass murder as long as they get to protest and feel good about themselves.
What was that Kathy was bemoaning about doing the same things over and over and expecting different results? Oh yeah, that only applies to conservatives, liberals have short memories for their own failures. But that’s OK, they “feel” so much more than we do.
Pah! A pox on all their houses.
Sanity- quit bringing common sense to the discussions! You are becoming a real pain!
I should find the article I read back in October. It discussed the fact that colleges are having a huge problem with parents. Parents are trying to involve themselves in every aspect of the kids life on campus. Things the student should be taking care of, the parents are doing.
Pam,
I read tha same article. Also, there was an article I saw on Right Voices where teachers are trained how to keep parents out of the classroom and out of their teaching, especially when they are politically active teachers.
I had forgotten that PCD! Thanks!
You have an exclusive setup with a Montessori school set up with in your public schools. Well, sister, let me clue you in on something. THAT IS AN ADMISSION OF FAILURE BY YOUR LOCAL SCHOOLS! THE NEA PARADIGM DOES NOT WORK. YOU ADMIT IT BY SENDING YOUR KID TO THAT SPECIAL SCHOOL!
Thanks for sharing that with me, PCD. I’ve learned something new today.
I did check it out and according to the Board of Ed, your childs school is the only public Montessori school in the state of New Jersey. So it is a public school.
Thank you for that, Pam.
The school assesses children in kindergarden to see where they fit in, and the child is placed in the appropriate class.
Just to make sure you are aware now that my daughter went to Edgemont from PreK through 5th grade. She is a junior at Montclair High School now. There is no preK at Edgemont anymore, because the Montclair Board of Ed eliminated the public preK program in the late 1990s because of school budget cuts. It was a full-day public school preK program; my daughter was lucky to have been four years old when the program still existed.
I also saw their attitude toward the NCLB to be right on track.
Does that surprise you, Pam?
I
There’s a reason that traditions become traditions, and that’s because the vast majority of people, over the vast majority of times, have found them to work well.
Yes, that’s true; but just because a tradition works well, doesn’t mean it’s a good tradition. You have to ask, What is the functional purpose of the tradition?
Lynching was a Southern tradition from the end of Reconstruction to the mid-1960s. The functional purpose was to terrorize black people and thereby control their behavior. It was not a good tradition.
Same goes for the tradition of Jim Crow, and any number of other traditions the purpose of which was to maintain one specific group’s power.
Furthermore, a tradition does not have to be followed by “the vast majority of people” to be a tradition. In the ante-bellum South, black Americans held in slavery outnumbered white Americans who owned slaves (and, I think, whites in general in the South); but that did not prevent Southern whites from effectively upholding a tradition that served THEIR interests quite well.
Minority traditions don’t have to be evil, either. The tradition of dissent in this country is quintessentially American; these days, though, so-called “conservatives” don’t usually think about dissent in positive terms. And traditions followed by smaller numbers of people over time have accomplished huge public goods — like voting rights for women and African-Americans, for example.
Kathy again made the accusation about budget cuts saying, “because the Montclair Board of Ed eliminated the public preK program in the late 1990s because of school budget cuts.”
Uh. Which year did New Jersey cut education spending? It didn’t happen Kathy. You seem to be on a roll with the non-facts. Please share with us some due diligence. We’ll all wait here to see what New Jersey spent on education every year in the 90’s.
Education is key!!!
It is the culture our children live in and emulate:
Students film sex in classroom between sophmore and junior all the while you can hear the teacher in the background.
The culture nowdays is what makes them think this is acceptable.
Child pornography in filmed in high school…..
Kathy, none are so blind as Liberals looking at the world through Clinton issue Rose (Law Firm) Colored glasses.
You think the NEA demanded increases in funding not given are cuts. You flunk accounting and finance on that, kathy.
Also, do you realize how arrogant and elitist you look in not recognizing you have a school not set up and run by NEA union teachers and administrators, but by Montessori, a private entity? Why does your community need such a school if standared public schools are so adequate? This is a difference in teaching methodology, not funding. You go back to funding. If you feel under taxed, take your money to the state and federal treasuries and leave the rest of us alone.
It must’ve been because of those budget cuts (that can never be shown). Those kids are victims of the evil republicans who cut services for the poor, education funding, veterans services, health services and social services. Liberals say the cuts happened so they must’ve happened and those kids need to be saluted for highlighting the results of those cuts.
Yes, that’s true; but just because a tradition works well, doesn’t mean it’s a good tradition. You have to ask, What is the functional purpose of the tradition?
That is, hands down, the stupidist statment I’ve seen since steve was banned.
I guess, your view, the “functional purpose” of actually educating our children to be self reliant, well educated, capable, and competent is a “functional purpose” that should be opposed.
Man, and I thought you had said some inane things before! I’m just stunned.
I bow down before you Kathy, you’ve even got steve beat with that one.
Also, do you realize how arrogant and elitist you look in not recognizing you have a school not set up and run by NEA union teachers and administrators, but by Montessori, a private entity?
No, the school to which you refer is not “set up and run by Montessori, a private entity,” nor is it “set up and run by NEA union teachers and administrators.” Neither one of these accurate describes the public school in Montclair, NJ, called Edgemont School — nor does your language accurately describe what any public school is.
There’s something wrong with your understanding of plain English, PCD.
I guess, your view, the “functional purpose” of actually educating our children to be self reliant, well educated, capable, and competent is a “functional purpose” that should be opposed.
No, I never made that statement, nor did I imply it. I can’t begin to understand how you inferred it from what I have said here.
Who is Steve, and why was he banned?
I don’t, Kathy, but you have problems of perception yourself, and you just demonstrated them amply in this thread, indeed!
Furthermore, a tradition does not have to be followed by “the vast majority of people” to be a tradition. In the ante-bellum South, black Americans held in slavery outnumbered white Americans who owned slaves (and, I think, whites in general in the South); but that did not prevent Southern whites from effectively upholding a tradition that served THEIR interests quite well.
Not just Southern whites Kathy. Depending on the year and state, slave ownership was between 5 and 10 percent of whites who owned slaves. For free blacks, that percentage was 28%. Kind of the same thing we see mirrored today with black on black crime isn’t it? Some traditions die hard.
You really are ignorant of history and the South. Did you know, for example, that slavery was not declared illegal in all states after the end of the War Between the States…it lasted until 1868 in Delaware. So much for the Emancipation Proclamation, which only freed slaves in the South.
You liberals have established a strong tradition of support for every failed policy possible, you don’t seem to be that eager to address that particular tradition. Guess your “functional purpose” really is to destroy this country and everyone in it in favor of whatever socialist wet dream you have this week.
C’mon Kathy, break with tradtion, the Neocon’s are waiting for you, and we have cookies!
It’s called logic Kathy, you should try and learn it sometime. You say traditions should be evaluated based on whether or not their “functional purpose” is worthwhile in deciding whether or not to continue them.
Traditional education worked, all of your touchy feely socialist liberal approaches don’t. You are against tradtional, objective standard based education. Ergo, you must find that the “functional purpose” of educating the young to be ethical, competent, and well educated isn’t something you want done. Typical liberal response, liberal socialists view the purpose of education is to create docile, ignorant sheep who will do what their betters tell them and help bring about the destruction of the US way of life, all the while enjoying the perks of that same way of life.
Disgusting Kathy, absolutely disgusting.
Kathy,
You started the “functional purpose” bushwa. Just us the find on this page function of your browser.
I just love it when you have to show liberals their own just denied words and expressed thoughts.
Uh. Which year did New Jersey cut education spending? It didn’t happen Kathy.
The state of New Jersey gives each school district a certain budget to work with. Within that budget, the local districts have to make decisions about which programs they can keep and which they must cut. Trenton cut Montclair’s school budget over a number of years, not just one year. The local board of ed had been saying it was going to eliminate the public preK in response to these cuts for a number of years, but parents always saved it by showing up at board of ed meetings and speaking up in behalf of the program. But finally even that was not enough to save the program, and it was eliminated. There is a town preK program still, but it is not part of the public schools anymore, and parents have to pay tuition to put their children there (on a sliding scale based on income).
The above is factual. Do you live in New Jersey, baklava?
You started the “functional purpose” bushwa. Just us the find on this page function of your browser.
I said that traditions serve functional purposes; and that a tradition is not good just because it’s a tradition.
I did not at any point say or imply the statement that severian attributed to me.
The local board of ed had been saying it was going to eliminate the public preK in response to these cuts for a number of years, but parents always saved it by showing up at board of ed meetings and speaking up in behalf of the program.
Yeah, why should parents have to spend time with their kids when they’re small, better to shove them off on the state to baby sit. We wouldn’t want to inconvenience the parents when we can soak the taxpayers and start indoctrinating the little tykes early. Wonder if there’s a kiddie popup book of Marx’s Manifesto?
I did not at any point say or imply the statement that severian attributed to me.
Yeah. I did not have sex with that woman either. Depends on what the meaning of is is. We’ve heard it all before Kathy, from people a lot better at it than you, and it still reeks. Newspeak all over again.
Kathy asked, “Who is Steve, and why was he banned?”
I’d say he was banned because of his racism. But the kind Sister should speak to that. He was a leftist racist who spoke racism almost every post.
Kathy asked an irrelevant question, “The above is factual. Do you live in New Jersey, baklava?”
No. My grandparents do. But it doesn’t matter. My point remains that New Jersey has not in the last 6 decades reduced the amount of spending for education. Your point is that in Trenton’s budget they didn’t find it a high enough priority to continue something but your statement didn’t say that to begin with.
Again. You said, ““because the Montclair Board of Ed eliminated the public preK program in the late 1990s because of school budget cuts.””
So my question was … What school budget cuts? You mean priority changes now but didn’t say that earlier. It’s a lie that’s perpectuated halfway around the world before truth can get it’s boots on. YOu did it in another thread about a week ago and I asked you to tell me WHEN and what were the dollar amounts (you FAILED to do so) to back up your claims about cuts in poverty programs, health services, social services, veterans benefits, education. In the last 6 decades they have all been increased every year and your accusations were UNTRUE and you have FAILED to reconcile what you have said with the black and white truth.
Shifting the story doesn’t do that for me. Neither does asking an irrelevant question.
And he remained her for over a year. Sister was too kind….
What school budget cuts? You mean priority changes now but didn’t say that earlier.
When there is less money, programs have to be cut. That’s how it works. And one of the programs cut was public preK.
Your point is that in Trenton’s budget they didn’t find it a high enough priority to continue something but your statement didn’t say that to begin with.
No, that was not my point, because Trenton did not cut the preK program. The Montclair Board of Ed cut the preK program because the school budget for the town of Montclair was cut by the state of NJ. Something had to be cut because the school district’s funding from the state had been reduced, and the town chose to cut the preK program.
Do you understand now?