Rep. John Conyers (D-MI) wrote in an opinion piece for the Washington Post stating that, assuming Democrats gain control of the House this fall, there would be no ‘rush to impeachment’ of the President:
As Republicans have become increasingly nervous about whether they will be able to maintain control of the House in the midterm elections, they have resorted to the straw-man strategy of identifying a parade of horrors to come if Democrats gain the majority. Among these is the assertion that I, as the new chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, would immediately begin impeachment proceedings against President Bush.
Rep. Conyers apparently thinks Republicans are too stupid to research his Congressional actions in the past concerning the impeachment of the President. Here’s House Resolution 635, sponsored by John Conyers, presented on 12/18/2005 (with emphasis added):
H.RES.635
Title: Creating a select committee to investigate the Administration’s intent to go to war before congressional authorization, manipulation of pre-war intelligence, encouraging and countenancing torture, retaliating against critics, and to make recommendations regarding grounds for possible impeachment.
Sponsor: Rep Conyers, John, Jr. [MI-14] (introduced 12/18/2005) Cosponsors (36)
Latest Major Action: 12/18/2005 Referred to House committee. Status: Referred to the House Committee on Rules.
Cached version of his call for his constituents to “demand” an investigation into the admin for:
[...] Abuses of Power and Make Recommendations Regarding Grounds for Possible Impeachment if Warranted
The new version of that page simply states the following:
Stand with Congressman Conyers
Demand an Investigation of Administration Abuses of Power
Nice clean up of your website there, Rep. Conyers.
Let’s not forget last July’s mock impeachment hearing, where Rep. John Conyers played the role of “Mr. Chairman”:
In the Capitol basement yesterday, long-suffering House Democrats took a trip to the land of make-believe.
They pretended a small conference room was the Judiciary Committee hearing room, draping white linens over folding tables to make them look like witness tables and bringing in cardboard name tags and extra flags to make the whole thing look official.
Rep. John Conyers Jr. (D-Mich.) banged a large wooden gavel and got the other lawmakers to call him “Mr. Chairman.” He liked that so much that he started calling himself “the chairman” and spouted other chairmanly phrases, such as “unanimous consent” and “without objection so ordered.” The dress-up game looked realistic enough on C-SPAN, so two dozen more Democrats came downstairs to play along.
The session was a mock impeachment inquiry over the Iraq war. As luck would have it, all four of the witnesses agreed that President Bush lied to the nation and was guilty of high crimes — and that a British memo on “fixed” intelligence that surfaced last month was the smoking gun equivalent to the Watergate tapes. Conyers was having so much fun that he ignored aides’ entreaties to end the session.
“At the next hearing,” he told his colleagues, “we could use a little subpoena power.” That brought the house down.
As Conyers and his hearty band of playmates know, subpoena power and other perks of a real committee are but a fantasy unless Democrats can regain the majority in the House. But that’s only one of the obstacles they’re up against as they try to convince America that the “Downing Street Memo” is important.
A search of the congressional record yesterday found that of the 535 members of Congress, only one — Conyers — had mentioned the memo on the floor of either chamber. House Democratic leaders did not join in Conyers’s session, and Senate Democrats, who have the power to hold such events in real committee rooms, have not troubled themselves.
It’s obvious the very thought of impeachment makes Conyers so giddy that he can’t help but play ‘pretend impeachment’ games on Capitol Hill.
As for his claim that the accusation that he’d immediately start impeachment proceedings against the President is a Republican “strawman”, well, I think it’s safe to say that his own statements and actions in the past have proved that he’s lying through his teeth - or in this instance, his keyboard.
Don’t fall for his baloney.
More: See Gateway Pundit for even more background info about Conyers and impeachment - and just who some of Conyers pals are (hint: at least one of them is a hero (Ray McGovern) to the hate-Bush left).
Related Toldjah So posts:
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Basicly, if you are an elected Democrat, you are an accomplished liar.
Comment by PCD @ 5/18/2006 - 9:42 am
No, I expect Conyers will actually attempt to engage is some good old fashioned Congressional oversight first (remember the Constitution?), and if Bush continues breaking the law and ignoring Congress and the Constitution, THEN he’ll move to impeachment proceedings. Sounds like the patriotic thing to do, to me.
Comment by MB @ 5/18/2006 - 10:23 am
From what we already know those in the WH should already be in prison for the damage they have done to our nation. Probably hung for treason.
Giddy about impeachment? I would call it thirsting for justice.
Comment by tommo @ 5/18/2006 - 10:32 am
Basically, if you are elected, you are an accomplished liar.
PCD, lets not pretend that republicans are above suspicion when it comes to playing fast and loose with the truth.
Comment by PAG @ 5/18/2006 - 10:35 am
MB, You can have your own opinion but It’d be nice if the folks on your side recognized there is at least debate as to whether Bush broke the law and “ignored” Congress and the constitution.
It is MY opinion that he did none of those.
So, I ask you what are your credentials? Or are they just the amateur opinion?
Doesn’t sound very patriotic to try to impeach someone with false allegations….
THese kinds of tactics are what will propel Republicans to victory again in November. What do you think? You think they’ll help???
Comment by Baklava @ 5/18/2006 - 10:42 am
Hmmm blowjob vs multiple lies and malfeasance….the question is… why aren’t you for impeachment, do you hate america so much that you would never hold people to account for criminal behavior?
Comment by madmatt @ 5/18/2006 - 10:44 am
Boy ST, this post is drawing the dregs out. I think we’ve discussed the certain set of people that will type b—j– in a post. No point in answering their questions with false premises and laden with accusations. There point of view is the only one.
Comment by Baklava @ 5/18/2006 - 10:56 am
Surely to God you don’t think Bush should get off scott free for the terrible things he’s done to this country.
Comment by JRI @ 5/18/2006 - 10:58 am
PAG, show me where a Democrat is telling the whole truth. Dump the accusations withing your questions, and the attacking American institutions and military is the only patriotic philosophy, and maybe we’ll find some common ground.
Comment by PCD @ 5/18/2006 - 11:03 am
JRI,
Oh, like keeping Liberal Judges from being put on the Supreme court to dictate law? Those kind of crimes?
Let’s talk real crimes Democrats commit and how they aren’t prosecuted, let alone jailed. Why shouldn’t John Kerry and Jay Rockefeller not be tried for Treason?
Comment by PCD @ 5/18/2006 - 11:14 am
Baklava, it’s much like me punching you in the face, and then insisting we have a debate whether or not it was, in fact, a punch. Sure, have at it. But it doesn’t change the fact (obvious to anyone watching) that it was a punch in the face.
There are many with better credentials than I, but I’d have to say I offer a bit more than an amateur opinion. Even better, I’m not blinded by seething rage and party loyalty. I’d slam the Dems just as quick, much as I did over the Clipper chip and the like.
It would be eversomuch better if people could put country above party. And that comment is much more appropriately aimed at GOP supporters these days than anyone else.
Comment by MB @ 5/18/2006 - 11:31 am
MB, you are blind to the Democrats putting PARTY OVER COUNTRY now days. Come bank if you intend on being honest. With your last statement I group you in with liars like Conyers, Kerry, and the Kennedys.
Comment by PCD @ 5/18/2006 - 11:37 am
Hey PCD all the things wrong with country including 9/11 happened while rethugs run all branches of govt. Why don’t you explain away the corporate welfare system that rethugs have set up…come on why do horribly profitable oil companies need extra money why aren’t they taxed?
Comment by madmatt @ 5/18/2006 - 11:57 am
Yeah, why should the congress have oversight?
Clearly the constitution has a liberal bias.
Comment by Sarge @ 5/18/2006 - 12:03 pm
That’s a strawman. No one has argued that there shouldn’t be oversight in government nor has anyone argued that the Constitution is a ‘liberal’ document (except, well maybe liberals have argued that - but that’s another topic for another day).
Comment by Sister Toldjah @ 5/18/2006 - 12:09 pm
It’s well known that reality has a liberal bias.
Less certain, but I suspect also true, is the fact that the last 1/3 is backwash.
Comment by MB @ 5/18/2006 - 12:16 pm
As far as I’m concerned they can’t start impeachment soon enough. Even if Dems to score big in Nov. I seriously doubt anything will come of it. President Cheney or Hassart isn’t any better. Better to let Bush be an albatross around the neck of the GOP until Gore/Clinton 2008.
If you haven’t guessed yet, ST, Daou linked to you again.
Comment by John Gillnitz @ 5/18/2006 - 12:19 pm
Madmatt,
Let’s see, Clinton (Gorelick blinding the national intelligence agencies to critical evidence because it was presented to a grand jury, then court [Preferred way liberals like to handle everything].) not only left the country open to attack, he failed to accept Osama Bin Laden being handed to him.
Madmike, you just hate capitalism, period. Any money made by an oil company offends you. To you, they have no rights. So dump that bucket of bilge elsewhere. Go to Cuba or Zimbabwe if you like socialism so much.
Fools like you make stupid statement like, “Why aren’t they taxed?” when you mean, “Why are they allowed to make a profit? Why are they allowed to exist outside of a government monopoly?”
Be honest for a change, madmikey.
Comment by PCD @ 5/18/2006 - 12:29 pm
MB, only to a moonbat is that true.
Comment by PCD @ 5/18/2006 - 12:31 pm
Alright John, lets go with your impeachment idea, but I want to hear from you or others just what the charges for impeachment should be.
What do you want to charge the President with?
I want specifics, not just some half-way answer. Give me details on what charges should be brought upon the President, what his crimes are, give us soe details.
I certainly would like to hear what the other side likes to think is illegal that the President has done.
So here is your chance, enlightne us, and we can all have a discussion on this.
Comment by sanity @ 5/18/2006 - 12:32 pm
MB funnily wrote, “It would be eversomuch better if people could put country above party. And that comment is much more appropriately aimed at GOP supporters these days than anyone else.”
Yep. I’m thinking about country. And my belief as well as many others is that the NSA is doing things legally and necessary. I’m happy they are doing the due diligence necessary for this country. I’m unhappy in my very well informed opinion that people like you are making allegations very strongly as if the stronger they make the allegation the truer it is about which they do not know (classified programs). And then making platitudes about others and party as if it matters.
Madmatt’s comments need no responding to. It’s as if corporate welfare didn’t exist before Bush or 1994 (that would be blindness or willful negligence). It’s also as if he thinks rethugs are “evil”. With that kind of mindset there is NO debate. It’s just plain psycho.
Sarge funnily asked about Congress and oversight as if there is none. Please back up that accusation Sarge.
John wrote, “As far as I’m concerned they can’t start impeachment soon enough.”
On which of the false accusations of a crime? Or just based on your feelings? And why do you think Conyers and Pelosi are running from the word impeachment? Can you answer that John? That’s really what this post is about you know. Dishonesty by Conyers. Did you gloss over that part?
John wrote, “until Gore/Clinton 2008.
Which one as President?
The one who voted for the war? Or the one who said Iraq had biological and chemical weapons. 
Sanity wrote, “I want specifics, not just some half-way answer.”
Good luck on that one. Better luck nailing jello to the wall.
Maybe we can start proceedings against any President or Congress person that doesn’t protect this nation from illegal immigratns of which whom some are Islamic militants and protect communities from hospitals closing due to people not following the rule of law and coming here illegally.
Comment by Baklava @ 5/18/2006 - 12:52 pm
Sanity,
Do they have to wipe the spittle from their lips first?
Comment by PCD @ 5/18/2006 - 12:56 pm
I don’t care if it’s frothing or with bug eyes. After 3 - 4 years I’d appreciate an honest factual discussion on the merits of the charges that the leftist/Democrats want to bring.
Maybe I’d actually be swayed! But I’m thinking not since EVERY one of the charges have been levied with false accusatoins..
Like Helen Thomas just two days ago. Tony Snow put the facts right on her lap and I don’t even know if Helen really understood how foolish she looked. She mixed up two stories to come to a false accusation.
And then they tell us we look stupid with our staunch support of the Pres when polls of conservatives show that we think he is to the left of center and not addressing issues with the solutions we’d like to see. It’s WEIRD. There is no perspective.
As a centrist/conservative who has been following politics closely since 1991, I must say I lay the blame on anyone who is being lazy and negligent and not doing due diligence with respect to getting the facts. This includes the legacy drive by media.
Comment by Baklava @ 5/18/2006 - 1:02 pm
It would be nice if there could be an honest debate, not just the same old rhetoric and accusations. Blah, blah, blah, impeachment, is all I read in the above posts. What would you impeach GW on??? Everything has been refuted, and later we find out that there was congressional oversight. I like how the left says that GW lied to them to get us in Iraq. But so did Hillary, so did Al, so did Bill, so did so many others. Hell Bill and Al lied while GW was Governor of Texas, lets throw their butts in jail along with GW. It is a sad state of affairs with the intelectual laziness that continues to be so prevalent in so many on the left. - Lorica
Comment by Lorica @ 5/18/2006 - 1:56 pm
That is why I said, that if they want to talk impeachment, and want discussion on it, give honest answers, not some talking-point.
I will honestly consider what they have to say, if they honestly say it.
Tell me the laws you believe the president broke.
Tell me what actions he has taken that warrant impeachment.
There are people who scream impeachment, that is an punishment, now what do you want the president punished for?
Because you FEEL he is doing badly?
Because you FEEL he went to war under false pretenses?
I am giving you a few, though easily refuted possible starters, but I want to hear from the impeachment advocates.
Yes Baklava, I know it is like nailing jello to the wall, but I figured I would at least make an open and honest effort to hear what they have to say - if they have anything more than the “I hate Bush” mantra.
Comment by sanity @ 5/18/2006 - 2:02 pm
Lorica,
It is not laziness, but incapability. The left dictated opinion for so long they forgot how to HONESTLY debate.
I like to pull their “Debate” tactic on them. Many, including many Conservative webmasters, don’t get this tactic I use. They are so used to liberals using derogatory names to dismiss opponents and their arguments, that they are shocked when that tactic is used on Liberals, and incapable of seeing it.
Comment by PCD @ 5/18/2006 - 2:05 pm
“The Left-wing of the Democratic party - Keeping America misinformed and miserable since ‘68″
- Bang
Comment by Big Bang Hunter @ 5/18/2006 - 2:18 pm
I love that phrase. It is just totally impossible to nail jello to a wall.
- Lorica
Comment by Lorica @ 5/18/2006 - 2:55 pm
Conyers acts as if he’s a five-year-old. Paying games. Why do his constituents not see this? Why do they continue to re-elect this race-baiting, lying idiot?
Comment by benning @ 5/18/2006 - 3:11 pm
What do you want to charge the President with?
Comment by sanity @ 5/18/2006 - 12:32 pm
He has violated his oath of office at best and committed war crimes and treason at worst. There are far to many to specifics to name here, but Resolution 635 does a good job. There is room for a second chapter since the NSA thing came to light. I wouldn’t expect anyone here to actually read 635, but here is a summery.
http://www.harpers.org/TheCaseForImpeachment.html
And why do you think Conyers and Pelosi are running from the word impeachment?
Which one as President?
Comment by Baklava @ 5/18/2006 - 12:52 pm
I did answer that. Albatross, remember? I follow the convention of placing the Presidential candidate first, meaning Gore.
Comment by John Gillnitz @ 5/18/2006 - 3:41 pm
John,
Thanks for showing you can’t be honest. You’ve got nothing and just proved it. Specifics were asked for and all you did was shuffle and jive.
Comment by PCD @ 5/18/2006 - 3:44 pm
John wrote, “There are far to many to specifics to name here, but Resolution 635 does a good job”
So pick one. We’ll show you how your sources of information should be changed …. by you. The link goes through the same laundry list of false allegations but doesn’t pick one to go into detail to back up their allegations.
It’s just hot rhetoric and no due diligence. What is that? Negligence.
Comment by Baklava @ 5/18/2006 - 3:58 pm
Al Gore as president? Are you serial!?
Comment by Severian @ 5/18/2006 - 4:00 pm
The Liberal creed: “There are no lies….All is nuance!”
John….why don’t you quit wasting everyones time and go help your buddy LurchKerry find that form 180?
- Bang
Comment by Big Bang Hunter @ 5/18/2006 - 4:31 pm
Conyers does seem giddy at the prospect of impeachment hearings.
The chance to defend the constitution against the attack it’s under by the Bush administration -
The document core to our nation who men have fought wars to protect -
Yes, he’s giddy to see a chance for it to be defended.
That’s patriotism.
The right-wing kool-aid drinkers, on the other hand, can’t tell the difference between patriotism under attack by right-wing attackers of the constitution, and the imaginary ‘left-wing partisans’ they invent.
Comment by Craig @ 5/18/2006 - 4:43 pm
Actually Craig, the left is such a parody of itself, its almost impossible to parody them any further than they already are.
- Bang
Comment by Big Bang Hunter @ 5/18/2006 - 4:47 pm
- Its amusing to watch the “selective memorries” of the moonbat gaggle at work. Impeach Bush!, we’ll worry about things like one single iota of proof hes done anything wrong later. We know hes done something wrong because….erm….. well hes Bush and we know better!
- But back in the heyday of the Dhimmicraps when Clinton was running around doing all sorts of much more invasive things, using his power to intimdate citizens, obstruct justice, lie to Grand jurys, hell go on Natiional TV and lie directly through his teeth to all of the America people, even do breaks and enters, all without any warrents whatsoever, I don’t remember any “outraged” lefttard “patriots” defending the beleaguered Constitution then.
- I guess they were to busy trying to support what the meaning of “is” is, against “that woman”, and where to hide the blue dress.
- What a bunch of sorry, childish losers.
- Bang
Comment by Big Bang Hunter @ 5/18/2006 - 5:06 pm
“ts amusing to watch the “selective memorries” of the moonbat gaggle at work. Impeach Bush!, we’ll worry about things like one single iota of proof hes done anything wrong later”
Dude. Thats what investigations and subpoena power are for.
I’m just excited that we may actually see some oversight of agency practices. God forbid someone watch what the executive is doing.
Comment by andrew @ 5/18/2006 - 5:12 pm
I think what Conyers suggests in his opinion piece is completely reasonable, and it’s not clear why you are calling him a liar.
Does he want to impeach the president? Probably. But how can you say he’s lying? In the opinion piece he said he would investigate the many suspicious activities of the administration that the GOP congress has refused to look into. If those investigations turn up anything worthy of impeachment then he would forward the results to the Judiciary Committee.
He also suggests that his investigative committee be composed of an equal number of Democrats and Republicans. That also seems reasonable and bipartisan. Maybe you skipped over that part.
If the Bush administration has done nothing wrong, then some bipartisan congressional oversight could put a lot of allegations to rest. Your commenters seem 100% convinced that George’s admin is 100% innocent; why such hostility to proving that with subpoena power?
Comment by Colin @ 5/18/2006 - 5:37 pm
Thanks for showing you can’t be honest. You’ve got nothing and just proved it. Specifics were asked for and all you did was shuffle and jive.
Comment by PCD @ 5/18/2006 - 3:44 pm
By authorizing the NSA domestic spying program without Judicial or Congressional oversight Bush violated the first and fourth amendment of the US Constitution and his oath of office. It is also an apparent violation of Title III of the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act of 1968 and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA). Specific enough?
Tell you what, PCD. You keep your head in the sand and I’ll stay pissed off that our country is deteriorating into a police state. Deal?
Comment by John Gillnitz @ 5/18/2006 - 5:37 pm
Domestic as in how Craig?
Please be specific in your charges.
Domestic Spying is what Clinton did during his administration.
Bush, is saying this is international, calls being made to and from the US that looks for keywords and or numbers that seem suspicious.
This is not domestic spying as in tapping your phone in he US to listen into your pie recipes and such.
As I said, you make the charge of domestic spying, give proof please, or at least what you mean by domestic spying.
Comment by sanity @ 5/18/2006 - 5:44 pm
Err meant John not Craig….
Comment by sanity @ 5/18/2006 - 5:45 pm
John wrote, “By authorizing the NSA domestic spying program without Judicial or Congressional oversight Bush violated the first and fourth amendment of the US Constitution and his oath of office.”
This is a FALSE allegation.
1) it wasn’t without Judicial or Congressional oversight - that is a false allegation.
2) It didn’t violate the first or forth ammendment of the US Constition.
It’d be nice in this debate if you offereed your credentials… as there are experts who disagree with your statement. It’d also be nice if your recognized there IS debate. You acting like the authority without sharing your credentials doesn’t make it an open and shut case by FAR.
John wrote, “and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA).” We’ve debated this ad naseum here. The FISA court in 2002 already relued on that issue and disagreed with your statemennt as well as others. So… 3rd false allegation? Yes.
So.. John is sstarting out with a 3 for 5 false allegation rate. As far as the other two where John says, “It is also an apparent violation of Title III of the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act of 1968“, It’d be nice if you can link to us a decent analysis of what they were violated. I’m thinking that either won’t happen or we’d be able to find an analysis that rebuts that analysis. Then we are 5 for 5 and you are making a case that people really just disagree on. Making charges of criminal conduct of the president about a disagreement is hardly something that will happen. You disagree politically and make it sound like he should be impeached because of your take.
Comment by Baklava @ 5/18/2006 - 5:49 pm
By authorizing the NSA domestic spying program without Judicial or Congressional oversight Bush violated the first and fourth amendment of the US Constitution and his oath of office. It is also an apparent violation of Title III of the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act of 1968 and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA). Specific enough?
Bull. At worst, whether or not it’s legal is ambiguous, it’s not a slam dunk, closed case in the minds of anyone except the Democrats and their associated hand wringing moonbats. There are also plenty of respected legal scholars versed in Constitutional law that disagree that it’s illegal, based upon the Presidents powers as Commander in Chief and the FACT that it’s NOT DOMESTIC SURVEILLANCE!!! It’s foreign intel gathering when FOREIGN calls are made into the US. Jeez, get it straight. And several of the original FISA judges, the ones who set FISA up, don’t think this is a violation of FISA, but again, moonbats like you sure do.
The left lies, distorts, and will do and say anything, no matter the cost to the country and the troops in the field, to “get Bush.”
Police state? You have absolutely no idea what a police state is. Look at North Korea, or Cuba, or any of the other worker’s paradises around the world. Hyperbole is all you on the left have, but it’s selective. I don’t recall the press or the libs getting upset by Clinton’s demonstrated, proven abuses of power and surveillance, like gathering data and FBI files on political opponents, the Echelon system, hiding Rose law firm records in the White House despite the fact they were suponeaed. Hmmmm.
Comment by Severian @ 5/18/2006 - 5:53 pm
Feelings…its all about feeelings….
Ah that giddy feeling as I have 3 minutes left before I leave work…..
Comment by sanity @ 5/18/2006 - 5:55 pm
Severian,
It’s not just Democrats and “hand wringing moonbats” who are questioning the legality of George’s domestic spying programs.
Bob Barr, Grover Norquist, David Keene, and other prominent conservatives have all publicly called on Congress to properly investigate the extent of the program:
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=59381
Why are you so opposed to a real investigation into these spying programs? As an American citizen you are entitled to know if George’s administration is breaking the law or not. Maybe what he’s done is legal and it really is protecting us from dangerous brown people. Congress should investigate it and settle the issue.
Comment by Colin @ 5/18/2006 - 6:12 pm
Nobody’s opposed to a “real” investigation. And I’m happy to see you aren’t opposed to listening to some conservatives if the message suits you. The point remains that there is disagreement as to the legality.
What is necessary for due process that you seem to forget is that we are in a war and the program is CLASSIFIED. Therefore a “real” investigation isn’t what the Democrats want (I believe). They want a public one which can’t happen due to it’s classification and they want to hurl pitchforks and name call. How responsible is that?
Colin wrote, “Maybe what he’s done is legal and it really is protecting us from dangerous brown people. Congress should investigate it and settle the issue.”
Yep. Behind closed door session. Would that satisfy you? I’m thinking not.

Comment by Baklava @ 5/18/2006 - 6:28 pm
BTW, Nice injection of racism there. The police state should come down on you hard for your “racist” remarks…
And you should apologize. Until then there is no other issue that I’ll talk about with you except your racism.
Comment by Baklava @ 5/18/2006 - 6:31 pm
- Well Colin, John, Craig, Liberals et al, what with the full security committee disclosures and briefing to ALL of the Congressional reps, both Democrat and Republic, wheres the beef?
- I’m not seeing a sudden rush of any of the committee members at this point, clamouring to the micophones to condemn a single aspect of the so called “Illegal NSA innocent sitizens” program.
- Why not. Whats wrong?
- You know when only a limited number of Democrats were privy to the secrets of the program, maybe some case could be made that there was “limited” Conressional oversight”, (the contention that there was none is an outright lie repeated as often as possible in the Marxist tradition).
- Now whats the xcuse?. Your cult doesn’t even trust its own senaators and Congress people.
- Oh thats right. That is the case, so much so that “whistleblowers” just can’t use the congress to report susspected violations, and are forced to “leak” the countries secrets to the fourth branch of government, politico-rags like the NYTrash.
- Got it. In the mean time I’m still waitong for all these proof based claims of wrong-doing.
- The silence is deafening.
- Looks like “AnythingGate” #24 is going to end up in the Bush column, along with the other 23 and you’ll be 0 and 24 against Bush. Keep on trucking moonies.
- Bang
Comment by Big Bang Hunter @ 5/18/2006 - 6:33 pm
In response to a demand for a retraction from USA Today concerning its fatally flawed atricle on the NSA non-wiretapping non-issue, the grocery store rag, looking no doubt to boost flagging circulation liks so many of the drive-by trash media, issued this statement:
“The USA Today editors stand by the original principal facts, as reported in the NSA story. We will however take a fresh look at what was written, too insure accuracy.”
Translation: “Maybe we jumped the shark, but man oh man was it ever great for sales.”
- Wonder if it ever bothers these guys that they make their livings publishing agenda/partisan driven lies.
- Bang
Comment by Big Bang Hunter @ 5/18/2006 - 7:09 pm
These activities are anti-American.
They are the opposite of patriotic, because they do not defend the rights of Americans.
Bush has shown himself to be traitorous to America. He is anti-American.
The telco executives participating in this are traitors. They are anti-American.
The NSA creeps putting programs like this together are traitors to their country. They are anti-American.
I think all things like this should be called what it is - anti-American activities.
The Presidential Oath of Office
I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of
President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability,
PRESERVE, PROTECT, AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES.
U.S. Constitution: Fourth Amendment
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
If YOU do not understand that, then YOU are anti-American.
Period.
Comment by Sarge @ 5/18/2006 - 7:31 pm
Bush, is saying this is international, calls being made to and from the US that looks for keywords and or numbers that seem suspicious.
Comment by sanity @ 5/18/2006 - 5:44 pm
There are several domestic surveillance programs. Most of them operate within the law. Some do not. Some give enabled access to major telecom switching systems. From this level you can log and record every bit that goes through them. When you analyze those records you filter out what you aren’t interested in, but the original data set being queried is still everyone who uses the system. What procedures are in place to keep a user with full administrative rights from runing unauthorized queries against that data set?
I’m not opposed to these systems being used to fight terrorism or other crimes for that matter. I’m opposed to it operating without oversight or accountability. I would love to see this come before the FISA court, but right now the Bush Admin and its co-conspirators are doing everything in their power to keep that from happening.
Comment by John Gillnitz @ 5/18/2006 - 8:04 pm
At worst, whether or not it’s legal is ambiguous, it’s not a slam dunk, closed case in the minds of anyone except the Democrats and their associated hand wringing moonbats.
Comment by Severian @ 5/18/2006 - 5:53 pm
I’ll concede that the case has not yet been legally tried. I would like Fitzgerald’s scope expanded to this matter and it tried by the FISA court. And Congressional hearings. It isn’t just us moonbats up at arms about this. Newt Gingrich isn’t happy. Neither is a former DOJ honcho from Regean’s term. Any true conservative would be.
Comment by John Gillnitz @ 5/18/2006 - 8:12 pm
Well not quite John. FISA has already ruled on this, something the left keeps ignoring because it doesn’t fit their arguments. FISA said it has no standing in the case of “international communications”. It probably has even less when the country is at war.
- Heres how it could be heard in front of the SCOTUS. One, just one citizen come forward and present a single case, wherein definative harm can be claimed to the person by anything that NSA has down. Lacking probable cause the SCOTUS will refuse to hear it, because of that old buggaboo called “seperation of powers”.
- I don’t believe the left gives a damn about the security of America, nor about citizens rights, nor anything else concerning our Republic.
- When we hear of one filing of complaint from a citizen then maybe I might put some gravity in all these thinly disguised “get Bush” claims. Until then its all about hobbling the adminstration in pursuing the WOT which the left doesn’t believe in.
- Bang
Comment by Big Bang Hunter @ 5/18/2006 - 8:17 pm
I would like Fitzgerald’s scope expanded to this matter and it tried by the FISA court.
Still desperately waiting for Fitzmas to bring you what you asked Santa Berger for eh? Fitzgerald’s “investigation” is a joke, it’s obvious that he feels compelled to find something, anything, even if he has to make it up, to justify his existance. But keep on wishing, the contant depression from being proven wrong has to be galling after a while.
There has been oversight, in fact, and the Democrats never raised any problems or opposition until it got leaked and they thought it could be turned into another “Aha! We got that mean ol’Bushitler now!” moment. It’s been briefed to Congress, it’s been reviewed by the Attorney General and the Justice Department, and contrary to your bleating, there are other parts of the Constitution than the 4th Ammendment.
If you liberals are all so concerned about the 4th Ammendment, why aren’t you raising holy hell about the abuses of it the “drug war” brings? But no, you and your liberal icons in the Democratic party only care about alleged violations of the Constitution when it suits your purpose.
Comment by Severian @ 5/18/2006 - 8:42 pm
If YOU do not understand that, then YOU are anti-American.
Period.
Ah, now we see the latest marching orders for the moonbat left, impugn conservatives patriotism! What a farce!
Just what you’d expect, scream we’re not patriotic to try and deflect critism of your continual seditious, treasonous, and ill considered rants that do nothing but embolden our enemies and put our troops in danger. But whatever you do, no matter how egregious, how heinous, how demented, don’t criticize your patriotism!
Dissent is patriotic! You and the rest of your ilk constantly whine. Hmmm…wonder if those people who protested desegregation, who threw rocks and bottles at black children trying to go to school, and who forced the National Guard out to control them were “true patriots” in your eyes, after all, “dissent is patriotic!”
Dissent is not de facto patriotic, in cases like the above, and in cases like your pathetic, distasteful, and seditious attempts to hamper the US during a time of war, are wrong. Contrary to the liberal ideal of “reality is what you think it is” there are absolutes in the world, and you are coming down on the wrong side of what’s right and correct, again. But then, that’s no surprise, it was the Democrats that were protesting integration and civil rights, not the Republicans.
Wrong then, wrong now, and damned proud of it.
Comment by Severian @ 5/18/2006 - 8:49 pm
If YOU do not understand that, then YOU are anti-American.
Period.
Ah that explains it, all the rant, all the mentality, the pisstivity, the irritability, the bloated feel….
He had his period.
I apologize in advance to all our women readers on the joke, but he ended in period.
Couldn’t resist after such rediculous “your anti-american” and “he is anti-american” and “if you dont agree with me - well your anti-american too”…
Comment by sanity @ 5/18/2006 - 10:15 pm
Isn’t it telling that the only ones mentioning Impeachment is the GOP?
Comment by Renne P. @ 5/19/2006 - 4:45 am
Baklava,
I didn’t say that I agreed with Barr, et al, or conservative opinions in general. I simply provided the link to prove that you were wrong in stating that only liberals are opposed to George’s apparently criminal eavesdropping program.
Why are you so obssessed with a “closed door” investigation? Surely by now the brown terrorists know we are listening to their calls and scanning their email. How could it harm national security to have an open investigation into the program. By “open” I mean: bipartisan, with subpoena power, and with the witnesses under oath.
It’s possible that I would accept these infringements on my civil liberties. If the NSA is scanning/recording every call I make to keep me safe, I might be able to deal with that. But I have a right to know so I can adjust my behavior accordingly.
For example, if I knew that the NSA was monitoring every lame rw blog on the internets, I might quit calling terrorists “brown pepole” in the comments section. But how can I know to do that if the government keeps all its surveillance programs secret?
PS: Don’t do me any favors. If you think I’m a racist and you won’t talk about anything else, there are plenty of other, more interesting, rw tools to talk to.
Comment by Colin @ 5/19/2006 - 8:25 am
Renne how do you figure?
Isn’t it telling that you are incorrect..
It isn’t the GOP ranting about Impeachment, it is the Democrats. You better check your facts again Renne.
Comment by sanity @ 5/19/2006 - 8:28 am
Bang,
You post a lot of bullet points, some of which I can translate into English and understand. I’d like to respond to a few:
“Heres how it could be heard in front of the SCOTUS. One, just one citizen come forward and present a single case, wherein definative harm can be claimed to the person by anything that NSA has down.”
The ACLU, along with several citizens claiming “definative (sic) harm”, has already filed a lawsuit:
http://www.aclu.org/safefree/nsaspying/index.html
I hope you will now “put some gravity in” these “get Bush” claims. Somehow I doubt you will.
re: USA Today refusing to retract their story, you said:
‘Translation: “Maybe we jumped the shark, but man oh man was it ever great for sales.”’
Before using a pop culture phrase like ‘jumped the shark’, I suggest you find out what it actually means. This page is pretty long, but if you try hard I’m sure you’ll get the gist of it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jump_the_shark
For what it’s worth, NPR interviewed USA Today’s editor-in-chief and he stands by the article.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5415822
Comment by Colin @ 5/19/2006 - 8:46 am
Colin inadvertently proves Baklava’s point by saying:
First Colin, closed door hearings would be bi-partisan be cause it would be both democrat and republicans in closed session hearings (which probably wouldn’t do any good with the leakers out there anyways), but this is because the program is CLASSIFIED, and not for the general public and not for the media to broadcast all of it to the world of how we try and keep America safe.
How could it not harm the US?
You allow the terrorists to change their behaviour as you said you would if you knew about it, which allows for the terrorists to use other tactics that would be harder for us to detect, in which they would have a greater chance of not being caught and having another terrorists attack on US soil.
All because you want to open up every classified deterent and investigative tools we have to try and keep Americans safe from those who want to kill us.
YOu are right, thanks to the leaking and the blowhards out there aiding the terrorists ability to bypass detection of the US for calls coming in and out of America from their terrorist cells, when and if another attack happens, just remember it is the ‘outting’ of programs like this which would have made us safer, and now terrorists know how to circumvent this. Thank you.
Your wron when you say your civil iberties arebing infringed on, unless you are someone who is talking to terrorist cells out of the country. Otherwise I highly doubt the government is listening to your calls to your boyfriend, girlfriend, wife, cat, psychic network or phone sex operator. There is far too few people looking for keywords and key numbers looking for possible terrorist connection as they try and sift through not millions but probably billions of information.
As a closing portion of this, I would say that Clinton did indeed proceed in domestic spying without oversight, which was not whined about so much as once during his administration. I also seem to remember him having FBI files gathered on Senators that did not agree with him and he saw as potential threats to his power.
In all, have you seen any sign of your rights being curbed or silenced? Has some jack-booted policeman in black come knocking down your door and dragging you away in the middle of the night to never be heard from again?
No?
I didn’t think so.
Comment by sanity @ 5/19/2006 - 8:57 am
But I have a right to know so I can adjust my behavior accordingly.
By extension, that means you think terrorists have a right to know what’s being looked at so they can change their behavior. And you wonder why liberals are not considered serious enough to have any say in how the war on terror is run? Sheese.
You, and your fellow travelers, still haven’t accepted the facts that we are at war with a group of radical extremists who loathe every freedom and right we have, hate our entire system of government and way of life, and are willing to kill millions in order to establish a new caliphate. Until you pull your heads out of your butts and realize the seriousness of the situation, and stop trying to hamstring our ability to defend ourselves, you are nothing but water carriers for the terrorists.
It’s not surprising though, liberals live in a fantasy world as that’s easier and less stressful than living in reality. Witness how they treated the Cold War, never admiting that the Communists killed millions, and clinging to a fantasy world view about how benevolent and nice the worker’s paradise was.
Communism killed 100 million people, and all I got was this lousy t-shirt of Che!
Comment by Severian @ 5/19/2006 - 8:59 am
- Colin - Dan Rather stands by his fake but accurate story too, even after hes been dumped by his bosses, and when hes not busy talking to the Ghost of Edward R. Murrow.
- That amd a dollar will get you a gup of coffee.
- Bang
Comment by Big Bang Hunter @ 5/19/2006 - 10:00 am
The Republicans are doing a great job at keeping the impeachment meme alive while we Democrats have no power do anything about it. The ropadope is a great tactic in boxing and in politics. Keep knocking yourself out, punching at the wind while Bush’s approval ratings get lower and lower.
Comment by Randy @ 5/19/2006 - 11:23 am
Well, there’s nothing as compelling as lying under oath about an oval office blowjob, but here’s what the moonbats are claiming as a case for impeachment.
1. Failure to defend the nation prior to 9/11. They claim there was no evidence that Bush provided any leadership to thwart the terrorist attack in spite of numerous warnings. Well, they might not have done everything possible, but I don’t think that’s illegal, or impeachable. I think if the Democrats ever did get the Bush administration under oath, (perish the thought) they’d be surprised at how much Bush and Condi actually did do. Just because he was on vacation doesn’t mean he wasn’t working on it. Haven’t the moonbats ever heard of a working vacation?
2. Ignoring the Geneva Conventions. They say the constitution states that the Constitution and the treaties we have signed are the supreme law of the land. I think there’s some wiggle room there.
3. Lying to get us in to war. This makes me so angry. Wars are usually started by lies, and no one has ever been procecuted or impeached for this before. Besides, everybody thought Saddam had WMDs, except for Scott Ridder, and he’s a kook. Why do the kooks have to be right all the time?
4. Violating our civil liberties. This is just a bunch of ACLU hoo ha. Those Islamists are extremists and are well capable of killing us by millions, taking over our country, making our women wear ugly veils and requiring us all listen to that horrible music. I for one am willing to sacrifice my privacy to insure that I will never be force-fed falafel. I hate that stuff. We are in a war against terror and until no one is ever terrified by extremists we must be vigilent and willing to bend a little bit on trivialities such as the 4th amendment.
Comment by Randy @ 5/19/2006 - 11:48 am
sanity,
You seem to suggest that I should not be concerned about warrantless surveillance of my activities until the jackboot thugs are banging at my door. At that point I think it’s rather too late.
By that logic, we should do nothing about the threat of terrorism until they set off a nuke in NYC.
When the government has the ability to monitor all of its citizen’s communications, without warrant or oversight, then it is very close to a police state. To me that is such a clear, gross violation of the 4th Amendment that it is hardly worthy of discussion. It’s unconstitutional on its face.
It does not concern you that a record of every phone call you make is being stored forever somewhere, searchable, without warrant, by unknown federal agents? In the future they will also record every conversation, every email, every IM chat and every text message you send/receive on your cell phone.
You have an amazing amount of faith in the government (and future governments) to never use such a database to harass, intimidate, blackmail or silence its citizens. You trust President Hillary with that kind of a database? Without a judge at least reviewing its use?
I don’t trust this administration one bit with that kind of power, and I wouldn’t trust Hillary’s administration either. It is shortsighted and foolish to let them scare you with terrorists so they can grab this immense power.
I saw the towers fall the same as everyone else did, and I understand that terrorists would like to do far worse. But to just roll over and let the feds do whatever they like (while violating established federal law) is not the right way to protect ourselves.
Comment by Colin @ 5/19/2006 - 11:50 am
It does not concern you that a record of every phone call you make is being stored forever somewhere, searchable, without warrant, by unknown federal agents?
Whether you are “concerned” or not, it’s not illegal. The courts have ruled that, because you allow the phone company to have this information in order to be able to bill you, that is you have entered into an agreement to allow the phone company to maintain records of this type, you have NO expectation of privacy, and it does not require a warrant for police to obtain said information. I’ve had plenty of courses on the laws concerning electronic communications when I was working as a computer forensics analyst associated with a NIJ research and support center, and it’s not illegal, no matter how much the Democrats whine about it.
By that logic, we should do nothing about the threat of terrorism until they set off a nuke in NYC.
Seems to me that this is exactly the view held by a majority of your fellow leftist travelers and the majority of Democrats. Hide your heads in the sand and delude yourselves that there isn’t a war on, that there really isn’t an enemy, just a “friend we haven’t met yet” and wait until something catastrophic happens. That describes the Clinton era response to terrorism to a T. Then jump up and blame whoever is in charge when it hits the fan, ignoring the fact that your complacency and refusal to recognize the threat and respond to it created and magnified the problem in the first place.
You are awfully quick to jump to the conclusion that whatever Bush and the Republicans do is “vilating established federal law.” If the NSA is really collecting phone records as indicated, that IS NOT ILLEGAL! And even the FISA court judges have stated that FISA does not relate to surveillance of communications that cross the international borders of the country, it’s NOT “domestic wiretapping.” Your refusal to acknowledge basic facts illustrates that you are willing to disregard facts in order to score political points against that evil BushCo and Halliburton Cheney, regardless of how much it hurts the country and damages our safety.
Which says a lot, all bad, about you.
Comment by Severian @ 5/19/2006 - 12:24 pm
Colin says “You seem to suggest that I should not be concerned about warrantless surveillance of my activities until the jackboot thugs are banging at my door. At that point I think it’s rather too late.”
Again, are you talking to terrorists?
That is what the survaeilance is, international to domestic, if your number is linked to an international number that raises red flags they will check it out more thoroughly.
I am suggesting that if you have not been calling suspect number or suspect number are not callingg you, you have nothing to worry about, and you are not being spied on.
Colin your not making a lot of sense when you say this, “By that logic, we should do nothing about the threat of terrorism until they set off a nuke in NYC.”
This is the typical liberal thinking colin. we must understand why they hate us.
It is also not making sense when you go off on tangents about international spying to try and find terror cells in the US and plans to harm US interest, and then you make the above statement. Everyone complained about the Bush Admin not ‘connecting the dots’ but now when they try and implement changes and work in greater details to keep track and monitor terrorist activity, people like you complain and whine they are being spied on, when it is not true. You want the dots connected but want to blindfold the administration and let them feel around in the dark to try and find things.
Colin then says, “When the government has the ability to monitor all of its citizen’s communications, without warrant or oversight, then it is very close to a police state. To me that is such a clear, gross violation of the 4th Amendment that it is hardly worthy of discussion. It’s unconstitutional on its face.
It does not concern you that a record of every phone call you make is being stored forever somewhere, searchable, without warrant, by unknown federal agents? In the future they will also record every conversation, every email, every IM chat and every text message you send/receive on your cell phone.”
Colin your lying here, and you will be called on it. There has been congressional oversight from the beginning, just a select few of high ranking republicans AND democrats were privy to the information (prob for fear of leaking classified info - which happened anyways).
Do you realize your name and address is in a phone book somewhere?
Do you realize how easy it is to pull up information on you, your whereabouts, your phone number, criminal records, ect with just a little bit of information?
Do you realize that your information is sold to hte highest bidder from you bills to your credit cards?
You use a cell phone or cordless? Do you know how easy that is to monitor also?
Yet I do not hear you scream privacy and oversight with that.
At least with the government they are looking for something specific and not your call to the psychic network or the phone sex line. I highly doubt they are interested in such mundane things, and with billions in data flowing across that they need to check for specific keywords, like bomb, school, pentagon, president, assassinate, that they need to filter through to check and make sure you are not a threat to the US.
Other than that, if they call me up or visit me after this post because I just added those keywords as a point, I will happily oblige and be honest with them because they are doing their JOB in protecting America. I have nothing to hide, because I am not doing anything that would be considered terrorist activity or helping terrorists.
If this had not been ‘leaked’ people would not be going out of their minds thinking they are secretly being spied on in the shower or something. Paranoia runs rampant and we have certain individuals who run around screaming they are being spied on.
Colin then says, “I saw the towers fall the same as everyone else did, and I understand that terrorists would like to do far worse. But to just roll over and let the feds do whatever they like (while violating established federal law) is not the right way to protect ourselves. “
And if the president has broken the law, why isn’t he being impeached? Why just certain mumbling about it, why not scream it by the whole party?
What judges has come out and said you have broken the law President Bush?
Where has it been noted, decided, and ruled on that the President has broken the law? Besides in your instance of ruling on your own that and in your own mind that he has broken the law.
This has been rehashed all over the place, about the authority he has in doing this, even BILL CLINTON said and noted the Presidential Authority Bush has in times like this. Though most likely to shove critism off of his domestic spying he had done before also…..by the way, why didn’t congress go berserk then, call him a traitor and breaking the law, why wasn’t that leaked out to the press?
Probably because he was a democrat.
Comment by sanity @ 5/19/2006 - 12:29 pm
Severian,
Yawn. Did you deliberately miss my point?
Whether the NSA spying programs are legal or not (still a matter of debate among people I consider far more knowledgeable than you), they pose an obvious threat to our privacy. And without privacy you have very little liberty.
What sort of surveillance wouldn’t you support to help calm your bedwetting fear of terrorists? Would it be ok with you if the government, without oversight, recorded every single phone conversation you have for your entire life? If they recorded every email you sent and received?
Remember it’s going into a database that you have no access to. Anything you say in your life could be taken out of context and used against you. There is no recourse for you if information in the database is wrong. You don’t believe a database like this could be abused? No corrupt federal official w/ access would sell information about you?
We faced down the soviets without creating a police state here. But you’re ready to throw the 4th Amendment out the window because a group of lunatics got lucky and knocked down some buildings.
Edited - insult. –ST
Comment by Colin @ 5/19/2006 - 12:52 pm
Colin look. A reasonable amount of cautious distrust of any administration is healthy, and natural. everyone has seen what an uncontrolled regime can do, many times over. All that is fine and good.
- The type of frenzied, frothing at the mouth paranoia, typical of the far left you see these days, is not in that category. Its born of a frenetic desperation of being out of power, and needing to demonize the existing government to bolster their own feelings of apartheid, and feelings of powerlessness.
- Don’t expect people that can still function with a modicum of common sense to join you in the moonbatty parade.
- Show me some specifics, hard examples of all the many claims that are breathlessly muttered every day of the week, everyone of which have turned out to be empty fantasies, and I will take it serious.
- After awhile, when all these “AnythingGates” turn out to be feckless, the left runs into the “cry wolf” problem. 24 “outreageous Nothings” later, based on total lies and fabrications, is not the way to get support.
- Personally I’m not in the habit of voting for someone for high office, and then spend all my waking hours looking for the boogyman under the bed. I vote for a man and then I put reasonable trust in him. I voted for Bush because I believed he would worry more about the welfare and safety of America, than any sort of “political theories”, or hurting the sensibilities of some “identity group”.
- Put in simple terms, since the concept of survival seems to escape Liberals; You’re not likely to give a damn about your phone bills if you’re dead.
- Bang
Comment by Big Bang Hunter @ 5/19/2006 - 1:03 pm
“We faced down the soviets without creating a police state here. But you’re ready to throw the 4th Amendment out the window because a group of lunatics got lucky and knocked down some buildings.”
- A totally miscomparisan of two completely different situations and the typical “ready to go” over simplification, and an all out insult to the memory of the innocent people that died that day.
- I honestly having nothing but disgust for the Liberal/Progessives, after watching this sort of disrespect for the past 5+ years in the name of “the cause”.
- The “progessive” credo in action: “Party first and the hell with America.”
- Bang
Comment by Big Bang Hunter @ 5/19/2006 - 1:21 pm
How could I miss your point Colin, the wet pants were the obvious tip off. You take a program that gets phone record data, and immediately extrapolate that to “the boogyman government is listening to ALL our calls.” Ignoring the fact that that is physically impossible, there is nothing in what has been said about the NSA programs that even remotely hints at the government listening to people without warrants, just a collection of calling data to use as a reference to mine for unusual activity, which then triggers a warrant to search deeper. You are the paranoid hand wringer that’s jumping to the conclusion that this is something it isn’t. Why the paranoia Colon?
Once again, I’m writing quite slowly now as it’s apparent you don’t read too fast, there is no violation of the 4th ammendment! The courts have repeatedly ruled that this is not illegal or a violation of the Constitution. You and your fellow leftists screaming and shouting that it is doesn’t make it so, and you are so desperate for ANYTHING to pin on this administration that you resort to outright distortion and lies to try and excite people and tar the administration.
I’d be curious as to what your reaction was when it was discovered that Clinton was using the FBI to compile records of political opponents. Or was that OK because he was a Democrat?
You have a bad case of paranoia. It’s not a bad idea to keep an eye on how the government does things to protect basic rights, but going overboard and immediately screaming like a banshee over things that do not rise to that level just makes you look like a hysterical paranoid. Rational people, when presented with facts about such things, make rational judgments, not continue to go open loop and claim that things are happening that aren’t, or that legal things are actually illegal. Depends on what the meaning of is is eh?
You have little connection to reality, but I guess playing Chicken Little leaves many with a feeling of self rightous glee that, well, everyone else may be a inbred moron, but at least WE see the truth! Regardless of how removed from reality your TRUTH is.
That’s the main argument I have with you and your ilk, hysteria is not a good basis for rational thought or discourse.
Comment by Severian @ 5/19/2006 - 1:22 pm
If you liberals are all so concerned about the 4th Ammendment, why aren’t you raising holy hell about the abuses of it the “drug war” brings?
Um..we are. What rock have you been living under?
Comment by KC @ 5/19/2006 - 1:26 pm
sanity,
First of all, let me address this:
“Colin your lying here, and you will be called on it.”
If I said some inaccurate I encourage you to correct me. Provide a link while you’re at it, because frankly I’ve seen so much spin and bs flying around on this blog that I won’t accept much on face value.
Now, I assume you’re calling me a liar because I said the spying was going on without oversight. OK, let me be more precise. Regarding the eavesdropping program, you are correct, some legislators have been briefed. But the law requires that when you’re spying on American citizens then the full Intelligence Committee must be briefed, not just handpicked pet Senators.
Here’s what Arlen Specter had to say about it:
“SEN. SPECTER: Well, the statute [National Security Act] requires that the committee be informed. And the committee constitutes 15 members. And they have the so-called “gang of eight”: the chairman and ranking member of the Intelligence Committees of each House, and the majority leader and the Democratic leader in each House. That really is not—is not what the statute requires. And if the administration thinks that’s too broad because the Congress leaks, and regrettably that’s a fact of life, we ought to change the law.”
Short version: they broke the law by not briefing the entire committee. As far as I know they have yet to brief the entire committee about either NSA program.
And tho I find “Clinton did it too!” arguments tiresome, I will take a moment to shoot yours down, too.
Regarding warrantless physical searches of US citizens, Clinton signed an executive order that said:
“Section 1. Pursuant to section 302(a)(1) [50 U.S.C. 1822(a)] of the [Foreign Intelligence Surveillance] Act, the Attorney General is authorized to approve physical searches, without a court order, to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of up to one year, if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that section.”
That section requires the Attorney General to certify is the search will not involve “the premises, information, material, or property of a United States person.” That means U.S. citizens or anyone inside of the United States.
(from MediaMatters http://mediamatters.org/items/200512240002#20060512)
Here’s some advice: you shouldn’t believe everything you read on the drudge report.
Why hasn’t George been impeached? Now you’re just being silly. The GOP still runs Congress, so I don’t think George has much to worry about for now.
Comment by Colin @ 5/19/2006 - 1:29 pm
No KC, you’re not. All the Democratic politicians, and all the liberal blogs, are all focused on the Bush admin, not on the drug war, because they realize the drug war abuses don’t play well as they occur under both parties. You may complain, or discuss the abuses, but it never rises to anywhere near the level of your feigned outrage over anything BushCo does. The day I see headlines in the NYT and the other liberal rags, for weeks on end, about the abuses that occur daily in the drug war, then you will have a point, until then, my suggestion is to stop focusing on trivia and non-issues and get back to seriously opposing real abuses.
Comment by Severian @ 5/19/2006 - 1:30 pm
Colin wrote, “Why are you so obssessed with a “closed door” investigation?”
I knew that a closed door investigation wouldn’t please you. The answer is because these programs to whatever extent they exist are classified for a reason. We are in a war. I hope your attitude never gets elected.
Colin racistly wrote, “Surely by now the brown terrorists know we are listening”
Doesn’t matter what color the Islamofacists are.
Colin naively asked, “How could it harm national security to have an open investigation into the program.”
Because the details of the program would be divuldged to the public.
Colin purposefully got it wrong by saying, “If the NSA is scanning/recording every call I make to keep me safe”
Well… Colin could’ve gotten it right if he’s making calls to members of Al’Qaida. In which I’m glad the communication with the enemy are being surveilled and I see why Colin would be upset.