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Ding dong, the immigration bill is dead

Posted by: Sister Toldjah on June 28, 2007 at 11:38 am

For now, anyway. Captain Ed liveblogged today’s Senate vote. The AP has more on the vote.

PM Update: I see the congrats are being passed all around the conservative opinion sites and blogs, but this piece from Jim Geraghty stood out to me:

So, Mr. President… now that you’ve demonstrated that you’re willing to:

–put enormous resources, time, energy, political capital and appropriations approval into an effort for legislation that drives the base of your party batty;

–have your aides call the base of your party xenophobic, racist, and not wanting what’s best for America;
have legislative allies like Trent Lott contend that your longtime loyal friends in the media world, talk radio show hosts, are a problem that “needs to be dealt with”;

–accuse your opponents of ignorance and not reading a bill when few, if any of us, believe you read through an entire 500 page bill;

–flatly refused to listen or consider our arguments that nearly-instant “probationary Z-visas” that permit a recipient to work without fear of deportation amounts to a de facto amnesty;
and chosen to do all of the above when you have a 30 percent approval rating or so and the base of your party is your last remaining friend…

…when you need our help in the future, you had better ask nicely and have a long list of persuasive arguments.

That “ask nicely” bit is a two way street. Unfortunately, so many of the bill’s opponents didn’t see it that way. Of course, we’re not supposed to “ask” our representatives to do anything for us – we’re supposed to let them know what we want, what our concerns are, what issues are important to us, and they’re supposed to keep that in mind when they go to the floor of the House or Senate – or sit in the big man’s chair in the Oval Office. But we’re supposed to act like adults when we do it, and calling the president “Jorge Bush,” and a “traitor” etc doesn’t cut it, so it’s not just the President who needs to rethink how he deals with conservatives. Conservatives need to RELEARN how to deal with a Republican President they respected until he “sold out” the country to Mexico.

I’m also seeing at NRO and other places many pats on the back to conservative talk radio and conservative pundits in general who have supposedly been a ‘wealth’ of information on the “amnesty” issue. I beg to differ. Many of these people were part of the problem, because they mislabeled the bill as “amnesty” when it’s not, and they repeatedly kept claiming that this bill would essentially ignore the criminal elements of the illegal alien community. It doesn’t. There was so much misinformation out there about this bill being thrown at people by conservative pundits that by the end of the debate (or the end for now, at least) correcting those errors proved futile. Talk radio and conservative pundits can be great when they’re digging into the liberal opposition’s record, but sloppy when taking their own to task.

What is the result of this version of the bill going down in flames? It is being widely predicted amongst politicos and beltway insiders that this bill will not be taken up again until when? After the 2008 elections. Just as I thought. Think this ride against the bill was bumpy and painful? Wait til you have to lobby Democrats – and a potentially Democrat administration – against their own bill. And if many of the bill’s conservative opponents have their way about it, solid conservatives like Minority Leader Mitch McConnell won’t be returning to the Senate, so the Democrats are facing a prime opportunity to expand their lead in the Senate. This is not good.

Since my email has been filling up lately on the immigration issue, I figure now is as good a time as any to clear up some misconceptions about my opinion on the bill:

1. Most importantly: I am not an “enthusiastic supporter” of the current-now-dead immigration bill. But I am a supporter of immigration reform in general, and while I’d like to see that fence built, I also want the issue of the status of current immigrants who are here today dealt with sooner rather than later. We should do both, but we shouldn’t have to wait for one to get the other, especially considering that the likely time we will see this bill brought forth again will be in 2009.

2. I do not begrudge for one second anyone taking an active role in trying to get this bill tabled. This has never been about wanting people to just roll over and take whatever the give us to me. My big issue has been with how the debate has been conducted, and to those in my email who have complained that I’ve been too “one-sided”, au contraire: I have taken the bill’s proponents to task, too. The fact of the matter is that you can find an overwhelming number of blogs willing to take proponents to task but very few taking opponents to task. So the criticism of proponents is not exactly lacking in the blogosphere.

3. I sincerely believe that the vast majority of the bill’s opponents had/have good intentions and obviously care deeply about our national security, about our public resources and who gets to use them, our crime rate – but again, I disagreed with the way many went about expressing disagreement with others about it, and was especially upset to see Hugh Hewitt of all people get demonized by conservatives simply because he was defending a staunch conservative like Arizona Senator Jon Kyl. I mean, if you can’t trust Hugh Hewitt on the immigration issue, who can you trust? And as I’ve said before, how the administration was characterizing opponents of the bill was wrong, yes, but it was no different than how some of the strongest opponents of the bill have been talking about him and his administration on this issue for years.

4. A few emailers have told me they will no longer read my blog because of my stance on this issue. It’s a free country, of course, but I had hoped that people wouldn’t feel they had to do that, considering on the vast majority of other issues we’re standing right there together. But having said that, just for the record I have never wanted this blog to seem like an echo chamber, even though most of the time most of us agree in general on the issues I blog about. That’s to be expected and there’s nothing wrong with that. But from time to time, readers of this blog and I are not going to see eye to eye on an issue. But I can promise you this: You will not see me talking about the people who disagree with me on whatever the issue is in the same way you’ve seen some people talk about people who didn’t oppose the immigration bill with every fiber of their being. There is a reason I have cut down on visiting certain other blogs I used to visit regularly and that’s because I can’t stand the way they are classifying anyone who disagrees with them. I try to keep that in mind whenever I write something here that goes against the grain because I don’t want people to come to this blog, think I’m a hateful, shameful so-and-so because I don’t know how to express my disagreement without denigrating my fellow conservatives who don’t share the same opinions. I don’t ever cut down on visiting certain other blogs because of mere disagreement. I cut down on visiting those blogs when I feel like my opinions aren’t welcomed nor encouraged and my positions are being twisted into something they’re not.

We all work well when we’re working together and when we’re bouncing ideas off of each other respectfully. We have to be able to take little victories where we can. The way I look at this immigration bill was that it contained little victories – not big ones. It’s the same way I view any legislative attempts on abortion. Abortion, as longtime readers now, is the issue that makes or breaks it for me in the Republican party. If they ever were to change their position on the issue, I wouldn’t be a Republican anymore. But I also know that I can’t be an all or nothing Republican on the issue of abortion. I take the little victories – like the partial birth abortion ban – to heart, knowing one day they just might snowball into a big victory, and I can’t turn my back on Republicans just because instead of banning all abortions they choose to ban just PBAs. I view the immigration bill in the same light. The Republican party has not turned its back on the illegal immigration issue, but you’d think they had, the way some people view the issue.

5. I want to encourage people to post their thoughts on the issue in the comments sections of the posts I write about it, even if they are likely contrary to mine. I don’t want anyone to think that they will ‘offend’ me with a contrary viewpoint. I don’t need nor want to be insulated from differing viewpoints. On the contrary, I welcome it because other opinions – when well-written and presented civilly – always make me think and reassess. I realize that most of my readers disagree with me on this issue, but also know that I’ve got probably the most thoughtful group of commenters in the blogosphere, and that is not a kiss up – I really believe that. The comments section in this post in particular is filled with responses that make you think no matter what side of the debate you fall on. That is what I love to see. What happened in Hugh Hewitt’s comment section (which is the norm in the comments sections of so many blogs now on this issue) is not what I like to see.

I think that about sums it up for now. If I have anymore to add to this, I will later tonight.

Prior this week:

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  • Iowa Voice » » Bloggers React To Amnesty Bill Defeat

    • 21 Responses to “Ding dong, the immigration bill is dead”

    Comments

    1. PCD says:
      June 28, 2007 at 11:57 am

      Good, next instead of driving stakes through the bill, drive stakes through the hearts of amnesty supporters on Capitol Hill.

    2. Aitch748 says:
      June 28, 2007 at 1:57 pm

      Oh boy, now we can go back to the good old days, when all we had to worry about was Aztlanofascists sneaking into the country and waving Mexican flags!

      Heh.

      I’m just bemused by all this. Not sad, not angry, not victorious, not defeated, just filled with a sense that we’ve come out of a ridiculous display of mass panic. People were screaming about a Mexican invasion since about May 2006, the current laws apparently were for whatever reason not working, Congress attempts new regulation, and the people screaming about a Mexican invasion are suddenly screaming twice as loud about the bill. Well, now the bill is dead, so we can all get back to screaming about the Mexicans! Joy! \:d/

      Ludicrous. :-w The wall isn’t going to go up any faster, and the laws that weren’t enforced probably aren’t going to suddenly be enforced. Maybe somebody else in Congress will propose something else to make this illegal immigration problem a bit more tractable, but I kinda doubt it. Not after the Senate switchboard got jammed with calls from people screaming about the previous attempt. Oh well.

    3. Sister Toldjah says:
      June 28, 2007 at 2:16 pm

      Aitch748,

      You’ve said a lot of what I’ve felt, just said it in a lot less words.

      Nice to know there’s at least one other person in this country who shares my view about how this debate was conducted on a national level.

    4. PCD says:
      June 28, 2007 at 2:52 pm

      ST and aitch,

      I have never been amused about this situation. I’ve been on this since I saw the problem first hand in the very early 90s in California.

      May I ask if any of you know a legal person in the drywaller’s unions in SoCal? By 95, they were all driven out of the area by the illegals undercutting them on wages. I forget how many cents per foot the illegals charged, but is was a pittance. Even the LATimes decried the situation.

      I forget the name of the Immigration lawyer in LA that bragged that he was an Illegal from South Africa, and he was not a minority.

      I remember each time the Border Patrol got shorted money, people, and equipment. All the politicians on both sides of the aisle made promised that were never kept.

      Did either of you ever see “Bonzai” charges by the illegals at the San Ysidro (San Diego) gate to Mexico? It may be funny to watch 3 to 4 border guards trying restrain 200 to 300 people rushing the gate and running up the freeway to the interior of the city.

      The pictogram signs of families crossing the road on I-5 and I-8 are there for a reason. Most of the illegals don’t know how fast a car doing 80 means in how far down the road the car has to be in order to cross the freeway safely. At each accident where an illegal was killed, the San Diego Union-Toilet Paper would wring its hands and put another sobbing plea for amnesty and open borders as a “news” story.

      I can go on and on. I think it is damn more serious than John Deadwards’ shenanigans or the punishment NASCAR teams got for bending the rules.

      If you are offended, as Steve Martin made famous, “EXCUUUUSSSEEEE MEEEEEEE!”

    5. Bob says:
      June 28, 2007 at 3:05 pm

      One thing I don’t understand. Because they tried to rush this bill through, good or bad, and it failed because a larger number of senators want to debate parts of it, why is it dead? Why doesn’t Harry Reid send it to committee to work out details and pass the parts that everyone can agree on? The fact that a bill that is so quickly rushed through the system that it wasn’t even printed yet, there wasn’t a budget office cost estimate done and they don’t want to advance it now just makes me think it wasn’t all that good a bill and wouldn’t stand up to the light of day that committee hearing and further discussions would shed on it.

      The bigger questions is, what will they do. We have immigration and border security bills that aren’t enforced now and a senate with no will to really work on the issue so what do we have. An open door to anyone willing to try a get in.

      It’s not a question of if but when someone who hates us as much as the 9-11 hijackers shows up again. And the senator will blame instead of doing their job.

      In the past week we have seen that it is clear. The “ruling class” does not represent us unless we hold their feet to the fire. That said they should all go, regardless of party in their next election. My senators (Specter & Casey) are on my list to vote AGAINST. Unfortunately not for some years. But my congressman is up on ‘08 and I intend to help him find a new career.

    6. Sister Toldjah says:
      June 28, 2007 at 3:17 pm

      I have never been amused about this situation.

      Aitch didn’t say he was amused, he said he was bemused, PCD. Big difference.

      As to the rest of what you said, there isn’t a person reading this blog who hasn’t been outraged at hearing about the illegal immigrants who have killed people in drunk driving accidents or in their homes, upset over the ones who drain our public system dry, and who hasn’t been disgusted at some of the illegal immigrant ‘communities’ where trash fills the front yard. Just because there are people out there who disagree with the majority on this issue does not mean that those people don’t share the same concerns that everyone else has.

      You’re right about one thing, though: this issue isn’t funny. What’s especially not funny is the mob rule mentality that has taken over this debate, shouting down ANYONE who doesn’t march in lockstep with the majority. Yeah, technically today was an example of ‘democracy in action’ but it was done by attempting to ramrod into submission or silence anyone who disagreed with the majority – which is kind of ironic, since that is what the many in the majority accused Congress of doing last month by trying to circumvent the normal legislative process and pass through this bill without much – if any – debate.

    7. Vegas Art Guy says:
      June 28, 2007 at 3:30 pm

      So maybe they’ll start with securing the borders first. An election year is coming up and this issue could decide more than one race next year. Once we have a secure border then we can move to part II of the issue.

    8. Jeanette says:
      June 28, 2007 at 4:35 pm

      If this bill had gone through the regular process instead of being done in a back room deal, with hearings and time to read the bill, time to debate the bill and add amendments that had to be debated it might have been a good cornerstone for something in the future.

      Right now I doubt anyone knew what the bill actually was, including all the sponsors.

      I’m not happy about what happened today, but I’m not sad either. I’m very disappointed in conservatives who have called for the heads of the president and any senator who didn’t vote the way they wanted them to vote.

      I voted for Bush twice and would do so again given the choices we had. I will never demean him by calling him names the way some bloggers have. (Not you ST).

      The same people yelling about this bill are the same ones who allowed a Democratic congress in that forced us to make concessions we didn’t want from a senatorial point of view.

      Now they’ll tell everyone to abandon the party again and show them again. I hope everyone is pleased if we have a President Hillary Clinton or a President Obama.

      Some conservatives have shown themselves to be as classless as those on DU and Kos.:(

    9. Lorica says:
      June 28, 2007 at 7:00 pm

      As to the rest of what you said, there isn’t a person reading this blog who hasn’t been outraged at hearing about the illegal immigrants who have killed people in drunk driving accidents or in their homes, upset over the ones who drain our public system dry, and who hasn’t been disgusted at some of the illegal immigrant ‘communities’ where trash fills the front yard. Just because there are people out there who disagree with the majority on this issue does not mean that those people don’t share the same concerns that everyone else has.

      And how is this bill going to help a single one of these situations??? It doesn’t address a single one of the problems most people have with illegals. All it does is fast track them to citizenship or give them standing with a new visa. Other than those two things it helps no one. Once this bill was signed and became law, you would see a rush to enter into this country like nobody has seen ever. Our best estimates are 10,000 illegals per day, I have to wonder how fast this would double or triple, forged documents in hand stating they have been in this country since 2002 or whatever, if this bill had become law.

      I hurt for these people everyday, but you cannot solve one problem by creating another. It just doesn’t work that way. Reid thinks in his smugness that he has some sort of victory, he is in error. I have a re-newed hope, that the Republicans are listening, that they will start to do the right thing, and they will come back into power with the next election cycle. Or let us hope and pray they do. – Lorica

    10. Sister Toldjah says:
      June 28, 2007 at 7:08 pm

      And how is this bill going to help a single one of these situations???

      How does calling for mass deportation, when we know it’s never going to happen, help either? I never said this bill ‘helped’ any of those situations. It just deals with the illegals in general in a practical manner. I get sick of hearing about illegals who are charged with a serious crime being deported, only to slip back over and commit another crime. If they were legal, we wouldn’t have to deport them. We could lock them up – for a long time – and not have to worry about them slipping over the border fence again, whether the thing has been built or not.

      There also seems to be this assumption that the vast majority of illegal immigrants are criminals (I’m not saying you said that, but that’s the impression I get from a lot of arguments I see). To my knowledge, most of them just come here to make a better life but end up taking advantage of the system – because the government has made it easy for them to do. Now that the problem has become overwhelming, the government has to come up with workable solutions to deal with the problem.

    11. jeanie says:
      June 28, 2007 at 7:10 pm

      So—-we’ve been manipulated by both sides. Who does one trust???

    12. omapian says:
      June 28, 2007 at 7:27 pm

      Unfortunately, this mess is probably the result of unelected judges providing ‘rights’ to persons in this country illegally rather than any elected legislator or executive. The costs of these rights are passed on to the taxpayers who voiced their objections to their elected representatives.
      Mass deportation is out of the question at this time. But our legislators could require local law enforcement to pass on information regarding the arrest of persons here illegally to a central database. Then there would be hard data, and not opinion, as to whether most illegals are just trying to make a better life.
      If it turns out that their only crime is illegal entry to avail themselves of the benefits provided by judges, at least we can see what has to be fixed.

    13. Great White Rat says:
      June 28, 2007 at 9:31 pm

      ST says: What’s especially not funny is the mob rule mentality that has taken over this debate, shouting down ANYONE who doesn’t march in lockstep with the majority. Yeah, technically today was an example of ‘democracy in action’ but it was done by attempting to ramrod into submission or silence anyone who disagreed with the majority

      If you mean that in some quarters, this debate got downright uncivil and vicious, then I agree. The tone on both sides went far beyond nasty, and I didn’t like it one bit either. It got way out of hand in some blogs, which I now avoid. This blog was a noteworthy exception, thanks largely to ST’s firm insistence on keeping it respectful.

      But I am a little perplexed about calling the overall response to the bill a “mob rule mentality”.

      Leftist students on campuses assaulting conservative guest speakers or the Minutemen, as happened at Columbia – that’s a mob.

      The anti-capitalist nut cases that ran loose destroying property in Seattle a few years ago during the economic summit there – that’s a mob.

      Union thugs busting into GOP campaign headquarters, breaking arms, and shooting bullets through the windows – that’s a mob.

      Thousands of citizens calling their Senator and telling him they’ll never vote for him or donate to him again if he supports cloture – that’s not a mob.

      Or am I missing the point of the comment?

    14. Sister Toldjah says:
      June 28, 2007 at 9:57 pm

      GWR, I don’t have any issue with someone calling their rep and letting them know how they feel. As I’ve said before, it’s our duty as citizens of a free country to make our concerns known to our elected officials. And as I mentioned in my update to this post, I don’t begrudge anyone for taking an active role in getting the bill tabled, whether it be a phone call, letter, email or whatever.

      My “mob rule mentality” comment had to do with so many opponents trying to shout down dissent. As I’ve acknowledged previously, I know both sides have engaged in this, but because there is such an overwhelming ’surge’ (no pun intended) of negative opinions against this bill, it’s only natural that you’re going to see more people on that side of the aisle talking about it, and talking down people who disagree or are ‘fencesitters.’

      There was not a blog I could visit where the comments section wasn’t a nasty fest shouting down disagreement – in some cases, it was the bloggers themselves being among the worst offenders. The piece that took the cake was Hugh’s post defending Kyl, and the massive wave of abuse he took over that position, being accused of having the administration “get to him” etc as if what he was saying wasn’t of his own volition, when he was one of the ones leading the charge against the bill to begin with.

      That is why I referred to the ‘mob rule mentality’ that has taken over this debate. Rational debaters like you and Mwalimu and forest are voices in the wilderness against the tidal wave opposition (or ‘mob’) that thinks people like me are ‘traitors’ etc who should be ignored and walked over.

      I know many of the bill’s opponents are justifiably upset because of what was said about them through all this, but lost in all of it was how the fencesitters and proponents felt like at being in the minority and reading almost daily how they were a ’shill for Jorge’ and traitors. Because of my expressing my exasperation as to how all this played out, I have lost readers – for simply stating my opinion. The bill is dead for now, so this is all water under the bridge of course, but it’s going to take a while for the ‘healing’ to really work its magic. I’m really upset about this, probably just as upset as the bill’s opponents were in the days leading up to the cloture votes.

      I personally wish that I could wake up in the morning and realize that ALL of this was just a bad dream.

    15. ruth says:
      June 28, 2007 at 10:13 pm

      The last immigration bill that was shot down gave us a democrat House and Senate. None of the conservative media accepted any responsibility for their part in bringing this about. While claiming credit for defeating this latest bill, they will never accept responsibility for any of the negative fallout. I think that we will not know the true victors on this immigration bill defeat until the first Tuesday in November, 2008. The anti Bush site, Free Republic, hosted thousands of hateful and disrespectful posts to a degree that I cannot believe the posters will be voting Republican and hardly care whether they have helped deliver another Clinton to the White House.

    16. Great White Rat says:
      June 28, 2007 at 10:39 pm

      OK, so I did miss the point. :)

      Thanks for clearing it up, ST. You’re right..there were times when the tone on some conservative blogs had an inexcusable Kos- or DU-like quality. Fortunately, you did keep this an outpost of sanity.

      As for readers leaving…you and I may have disagreed on this bill, but I’m not going anywhere, and I hope the rest of the regulars stay as well. It’s damned hard to find in one place this good a collection of people with insight into issues and the knack for expressing it well. ^:)^

    17. CZ says:
      June 28, 2007 at 10:57 pm

      Beel? Eeemegration Reform beel? we don’ nee no steekeng’ beel! We are the Federales!

      Close the borders. Enforce the laws. Now, git goin!!! It’s THAT simple, folks.

      Socialist lefties like to chirp about “Taking Back America”.

      Today we all took our government back. The American people took it back.

      I am a passionate conservative, a rugged individualist. No radio yapper ever told me how to think. But they sure can help rally the troops when it counts. Godblessem’.

      Forcing politicians to listen to the electorate is a good thing. We vote, special interests do not. When we speak the career politicians damn well better listen, or they can go back to their profitable private law practice.

      The political landscape has changed, bigtime. I predict a new accountability on both sides as the next election day draws near. Which ones will pay attention? I don’t care. Whoever does will win. In a landslide.

      Standing up to this imigration amnesty nonsense was a modern day Boston Tea Party. If you wrote or faxed your representatives as I did you should feel very proud.

      I have never felt better to be an American citizen. The system does work!!

      Enforce the laws. Let’s Make America Great Again®!

      Of course, that’s just my opinion. I could be wrong.

      God Bless (all real) America(ns)**==

    18. forest hunter says:
      June 29, 2007 at 1:23 am

      A good friend of mine said three words to me, as he noted my unstated displeasure towards the unravellers of America. Ballots not bullets and I must agree but some of these issues are so crucial one can’t help but wonder if…….

    19. Great White Rat says:
      June 29, 2007 at 9:16 am

      Related: Peggy Noonan’s column takes no position on the immigration bill, but it does speak to what it means to become an American.

      Whatever we eventually do regarding the illegal alien question, it will be fruitless unless real measures for assimilation follow.

    20. Drewsmom says:
      June 30, 2007 at 6:01 am

      As the newly apointed Press Secretay on a previous most excellent post by Sister, I have nothing to add here gys, you have all said it most elequentley if I must say so. Only thing i will add is the pubs that voted for this are TOAST. Voters will not forget lindsay the rest of you take note, we’re pissed off.