Like the majority of glass-house dwelling New York Times columnists, Rich has simply lost it:
“BUSH lies” doesn’t cut it anymore. It’s time to confront the darker reality that we are lying to ourselves.
Ten days ago The Times unearthed yet another round of secret Department of Justice memos countenancing torture. President Bush gave his standard response: “This government does not torture people.” Of course, it all depends on what the meaning of “torture” is. The whole point of these memos is to repeatedly recalibrate the definition so Mr. Bush can keep pleading innocent.
By any legal standards except those rubber-stamped by Alberto Gonzales, we are practicing torture, and we have known we are doing so ever since photographic proof emerged from Abu Ghraib more than three years ago. As Andrew Sullivan, once a Bush cheerleader, observed last weekend in The Sunday Times of London, America’s “enhanced interrogation” techniques have a grotesque provenance: “Verschärfte Vernehmung, enhanced or intensified interrogation, was the exact term innovated by the Gestapo to describe what became known as the ‘third degree.’ It left no marks. It included hypothermia, stress positions and long-time sleep deprivation.”
You know Rich is getting desperate when he has to quote Andrew Sullivan, who didn’t turn on President Bush until he called for a constitutional amendment defining marriage as one man and one woman, as a definitive source on anything.
Continuing:
Our humanity has been compromised by those who use Gestapo tactics in our war. The longer we stand idly by while they do so, the more we resemble those “good Germans” who professed ignorance of their own Gestapo. It’s up to us to wake up our somnambulant Congress to challenge administration policy every day. Let the war’s last supporters filibuster all night if they want to. There is nothing left to lose except whatever remains of our country’s good name.
Curt at Flopping Aces puts things in perspective:
The fact of the matter is that we are waging this war as humanely as possible, often to our own detriment. Our troops are put into situations that are more risky then they need to be because we do not want to kill civilians. Those al-Qaeda agents we do capture could very well be executed on the spot if we follow the rules of war, but we don’t. We instead feed them and clothe them, and then interrogate them, as any responsible nation would that wanted to protect its soldiers and citizens. And interrogation via the use of sleep deprivation, or head slapping, or girls panties being placed on one’s head is not inhumane.
The torture chambers Saddam used was inhumane. The rape rooms that Saddam used was inhumane.
You know, those same chambers we put into mothballs because we invaded.
The left conveniently forgets that fact, to no ones surprise. In the end you cannot get over the simple fact that conservatives have been condemning large scale murder and torture by nation states such as Saddams for years, while liberals excuse it.
Except when it comes to places like Darfur, where they talk a good talk, knowing they’re not in any position to do anything meaningful about the genocide taking place there. But they talk about it anyway, in an attempt to make the administration look bad for not “doing more.”
A big part of the liberal Democrat philosophy on the world is that the US should be the chief country involved in humanitarian efforts, like stopping the genocide in Darfur, yet when a Republican president, as part of a strategy that involves targeting terrorists who are hell bent on the destruction and submission of the west, decides to remove from power a dictator who waged his own genocidal campaign throughout his time ruling a country, liberals then turn the other cheek. That dictator, they assert, was “no threat” to the US, and the money we’ve used on waging the war on that dictator and terrorists in his (now former) country to these liberals could have been put to “better use” here at home, rather than in defense of western values. Certain Democratic hopefuls for president have even recently asserted that the genocide that would take place in Iraq should the US begin an immiediate scale down and eventual pull out is, in essence, not our concern.
Furthermore, the Frank Riches of the world would like nothing better than just to forget that 9-11 happened, to forget that our old counterterrorism strategies weren’t working, and that in light of 9-11, the United States had to come up with a new, more aggressive game plan to counter terrorism not just abroad, but here at home, too. To Frank Rich and other uber-liberals like him, the fact that we’ve had to get more aggressive in our efforts against terrorism (and in only rare cases have gone over the line) equates to Germany under Hitler’s rule, where hundreds of thousands of innocents were deliberately tortured and killed in an effort by Hitler to “purify” the human race.
The interesting thing about all this is the fact that Rich and other staunch critics of the administration’s efforts in fighting terror really can’t find any examples that even come remotely close to mirroring what happened under Hitler’s rule, so they have to greatly exaggerate those rare cases where the US has stepped over the line in an attempt to morally equate the US’ aggressive tactics which target Islamofascists who mean to do us harm with Hiter’s tactics which were, again, designed to rid the world of its “undesirables.”
Rich is another in a long list of liberals whose perspective doesn’t extend beyond the inauguration of President Bush in January 2001. It almost makes me wish that time machines actually existed, time machines that could accomodate a large number of people, so we could encourage the numerous liberal columnists, journalists, and “scholars,” among other deluded lefties, who have asserted for years that this administration is essentially a modern day American version of Nazi Germany and that our troops are supposedly merely mindless followers, to travel back to that time period in history, and have them attempt to report from the front lines what they’re observing about Hitler’s regime.
That is, of course, assuming they wouldn’t be discovered first by the Gestapo.
PM Update: Captain Ed points to a Washington Post editorial that, simply put, states that General Petraeus was right, and his critics - of which there were many - were wrong (via Stop The ACLU).
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I think Rich makes a very good point. One of the major questions that humanity must confront, arising from the Nazi experience, is not so much how could a Hitler exist - we know that the human race produces psycopaths at a regular rate - but rather how could a Hitler actually win wide popular support from average people of a civilized country.
The German people have been burdened with this question for quite some time. What is it about them that allowed them to be sucked into supporting and justifying increasing levels of horror. For the rest of us, the question is there as well. We all probably know, deep inside, that there really isnt anything special or different about the German people circa 1930 - that whatever it was that caused them to go down this road could lead anyone of us astray as well.
That is the scariest and most disturbing part of watching the American right over the past 6 years. One gets the sense that the blind support for the administration - especially an administration that may sincerely feel that they are up against uniquely difficult situations - and the gut-level hatred and villification of any critic of this administration, these are precisely the attitudes that swept the German people during those dark years.
Bush is not, by a million miles, anything like Hitler, thank goodness, but his supporters sure seem to be like the German people of that time. And that gives him the requisite space to cross lines that should not be crossed, to go further to places he should not go. That is what has caused this massive erosion of America’s image in the world. We seem to most people around the world to be betrayers of the principles that we ourselves advocated for.
The American right sneers at things like Geneva conventions, or international law. But these represent standards that we fought for (back when we had a greater generation). Those are American principles, from the time of our finest hours.
But the American right does nothing but try to justify violations of these principles, on the grounds of expediency. We are at war after all. But, of course, this is always and everywhere the justification used by torturers and other tyrants. Ask Saddam why he had torture chambers, and no doubt he could point to the chaos and civil war of today and claim that he simply had to use some harsh techniques to fulfill his primary responsibility - to keep his country together.
Either you believe in certain standards or you dont. People who violate standards ALWAYS have reasons, and what they consider good and necessary reasons for doing so. When one segment of the population in a democracy sets about trying to defend and justify anything and everything that an administration does, when they scoff and sneer at civilized standards and those who try to uphold them, when they go along with the erosion of civil liberties out of fear, then they construct the environment that has often led to government becoming tyrannies.
In the end it is not Bush, so much as his rabid supporters, who are the real danger to our democracy.
Comment by JoeCitizen @ 10/14/2007 - 1:28 pm
Before you decide to go off on a tirade about Geneva Conventions, it would behoove you to actually take time to know what you’re talking about. The prisoners we have taken in the War on Terror do not fall under the protections of the convention by any stretch of the imagination except in the mind of a liberal moonbat. In the past, these were accurately designated unlawful combatants, and were summarily executed. We are treating them far better than we have to, and the thanks we get is the kind of drivel you just posted. Regardless of your feckless beliefs, the conventions have a stick as well as a carrot, that is that if you are not a signatory and do not play by the rules, you don’t get the protections. But, it’s typical for those of your ilk to want to award the most generous of benefits to the most undeserving of despots and barbarians.
And unless you have had your head completely up your backside, you will notice that there are not ANY conservatives who support Bush unquestioningly. There are people like you who will oppose anything and everything that he does, but I’ve yet to see any of these marching neocon clones you go on so about. Plenty of mindless moonbats who would complain if Bush discovered a cure for cancer about how many doctors he was putting out of work, or that he only discovered it to allow big corporations to pollute since they couldn’t be punished for putting out carcinogens anymore, that kind of nonsense is unfortunately a staple with people like you.
So, go sell crazy somewhere else, we see it from your side on a daily basis.
Comment by Severian @ 10/14/2007 - 2:11 pm
Mr. Joe Citizen,
Could you please point out where your (or any Americans) civil liberties are being infringed upon.
On the other hand we have Nancy Pelosi putting our troops in harms way by bringing a resolution forward that happened 90 years ago, and threatens critical supply lines into Iraq. Even FDR would have had her arrested.
Tyranny or Treachery?
Comment by Rovin @ 10/14/2007 - 2:44 pm
No, JC, This is scary!
ALL ARE VICTIMS OF THE MASSIVE AGENDA DRIVEN COMPETITION FOR ECONOMIC OR POLITICAL SUPREMACY. THE DEATH KNELL OF YOUR ETHICS HAS BEEN ENABLED BY YOUR PARENT ORGANIZATIONS WHO HAVE CHOSEN TO ALIGN THEMSELVES WITH POLITICAL AGENDAS. WHAT IS CLEAR TO ME IS THAT YOU ARE PERPETUATING THE CORROSIVE PARTISAN POLITICS THAT IS DESTROYING OUR COUNTRY AND KILLING OUR SERVICEMEMBERS WHO ARE AT WAR……General Sanchez (retired)
Comment by Rovin @ 10/14/2007 - 2:50 pm
American citizens arrested without notice, held incommunicado, without access to a lawyer, indefinitly? Do you want the government to have that power? Are you really certain that with such power, no innocent person would ever be swept up?
Erosion of the right of habeus corpus. An ancient fundamenal right that protects INNOCENT people from being held by the government?
Government spying on American citizens communications, without a warrant? You think this is a good thing? You question whether this is relevant to civil liberties?
Genocide-deniers need only claim that they will be insulted in order for you to give them a free pass? Where are your principles Rovin? If Ahmadinijad were to threaten a surge in EFPs if we didnt shut down the Holocaust museum, would you go along with that too?
You either stand on moral principles, or you drown in a sea of unprincipled expediency, and thus knock America down to the level of just another power playing out its hand. I think America is an exceptional nation, but not simply because we are the world’s superpower, but because we stand for certain principles. We still do, but this administration, and especially its supporters, are doing all they can, it seems, to erode that.
Comment by JoeCitizen @ 10/14/2007 - 3:04 pm
You lefty “joecitizen” types have no concept of history, no understanding of what Nazi Germany was really like, and are utterly stupid — as in ignorant, unintelligent and simpleminded.
I wonder: how old are you? Are you still in college? Does your memory extend beyond th administration of George Bush? Do you have no frame of reference?
I find it absolutely hilarious when you libs whine and cry that we’re now fascist, and it’s funny how now the meme is those who support Bush are the fascists. Cam you lefties get any stupider than you are now?
But hey, I understand. I used to be one of your types — back in college, many, many years ago. Then my brain got in gear because I realized it needed to be used for something more than repeating what ivory tower Marist profs and elite media clowns were regurgitating.
Comment by Big Mo @ 10/14/2007 - 3:22 pm
Big Mo,
The quality of your arguments could not be lower. All you can do is call me names?
For the record, I am 53 years old - the child of a father who fought the fascists, and a mother who grew up in Nazi Germany. I thus have very personal experiences with people who both saw their government turn into the most horrific regime in history (all the while thinking that lofty principles were being upheld), and with a member of that greatest generation who faced existential threats but struggled, better than we are doing, to uphold principles that the rest of the world came to admire.
My committments are to fight for those principles, because I believe they represent America at its best, and are necessary if we are to once again be seen as a beacon for people in the rest of the world. And my comments here are reflective of my experience trying to understand how good people can go fall so far down slippery slopes.
As I tried to explicitly mention, I dont for one moment believe we have slid down the slope all that far, certainly not when compared to Germany in the 30s. But we have slipped a bit, and I do see the all the factors in place, especially on the contemporary right, that would cause us to slip further.
I would suggest that you take these issues far more seriously than you do, and stop just hurling trite insults.
Comment by JoeCitizen @ 10/14/2007 - 4:43 pm
Big Mo,
Can you cite examples for any of the following:
How about an example of an American citizen that:
Comment by Pam @ 10/14/2007 - 6:01 pm
oops, I meant, Joecitizen
Comment by Pam @ 10/14/2007 - 6:02 pm
joecitizen, it’s particularly egregious for you to whine about name calling when you and yours bring up the tiresome, asinine, and inevitable Nazi comparisons.
Go to hell. The debate is over, it ended when your side chose to fling poo instead of argue.
Comment by Steve Skubinna @ 10/14/2007 - 7:22 pm
So I suppose anybody who supports the administration is “blind”, is that it? I find that interesting considering how the left bows and prays at the altar of Al Gore every time he sneezes. Or the left who let Hillary reverse her position on pretty much every position every other day with no challenge whatsoever.
No scarier than people like yourself Joe. People who think like you led us right down the path to 9/11. Clinton, who epitomizes the left, was more worried about his precious reputation and his poll numbers than to protect this country. Under Clinton we were attacked time and time again and the only time Slick Willy decided to take action was when the Monica Lewinksy story broke, again to protect, or rather divert, attention from his reputation.
Interesting observation, considering that if people like you had their way, those torture chambers would still be going on. Children would still be tortured and women raped in front of their husbands, so please stop trying to take the moral high ground here, you have no standing to do so.
Not at all, we’re just smart enough to recognize the fact that it is outdated and does not deal, at all, with the type of war we are fighting today. To think so is pure denial, nothing more.
And yet not even you can deny the FACT that there have been no successful attacks on American soil since Bush has implemented the Patriot Act and other measures, in fact several have been diverted.
And I would suggest that you address some of the questions that have been put to you. Do you have any names, dates, locations, of these so called abuses? Perhaps it is the wiretapping procedures, the same ones the dems agreed to a mere few weeks ago, any comment on that?
You’re quite typical of the type of lefty that comes here to criticize us. You have no evidence whatsoever, just rhetoric and mantra. You offer no solutions, only propaganda.
Hmmmmmm, propaganda much like those very Nazis that you supposedly despise use.
Comment by NC Cop @ 10/14/2007 - 7:29 pm
Personally, anyone who tries to tie another to ‘nazi-likeness’ in thier arguement will lose it before they even begin.
Comment by sanity @ 10/14/2007 - 8:43 pm
Joe Citizen tries to play the Absolute Moral Authority card:
In that case, they - especially your mother - ought to be thoroughly ashamed of you. Anyone who can’t tell the difference between the atrocities of Auschwitz and the interrogation techniques at Gitmo isn’t the least bit familiar with either. There’s no comparing having your gold fillings forcibly removed before a trip to the gas chamber and being forced to listen to loud Christina Aguilera music.
And clearly, your moral principle is…what? Immediate capitulation to any 7th-century ideology that threatens you loudly enough? You certainly don’t think anything in this civilization is worth fighting to preserve.
So you think we’re headed down the road to fascism because people refuse to knuckle under to a threat.
Here’s a test: first, do a quick Google search looking for photos of people in the streets protesting the war and President Bush. Your likely get hundreds of thousands of hits.
Then, do a quick search looking for photos of people in the streets protesting Hitler. If you find any at all, you can bet they were all promptly sent to concentration camps. Meanwhile, you and your leftist claque continue to walk the streets and squawk your nonsense.
If that doesn’t bring the difference into sharp relief, nothing ever will. In that case, you’ve lost all touch with reality.
Comment by Great White Rat @ 10/14/2007 - 11:14 pm
- J. citizen is undoubtedly a Leftard propeganda dupe from LiarDogFake, or some such, sent out to spread the Marxist narrative. Unforunately he’s a bit green at this, since obviously no one in Stalingrad-on-the-net bothered to tell him that using AH in any serious post enacts Godwins law, in which case he losses the debate immediately, and has to scurry away to rejoin his moonbat Komrads.
- As to the post itself, the first line says it all, though I doubt the author realized it:
- It’s time to confront the darker reality that we are lying to ourselves.
- The chances of a Libtard ever waking up one morning and having the sudden clear headed realization that he’s being gamed by the “cult of the Democracy haters”, and used to crush everyones individuality, including his own, by joining the “collective”, is about as likely as the Sun coming up in the West. It does happen, but very very rarely, and usually only with the gaining of age and maturity, otherwise known as “growing up”.
- (Remember Komrads…you don’t have to think, we’ll do it for you - This message brought to you by Laika the space dog - beaming trVthiness to tin-hats enerywhere since 1957)
- BBH -
Comment by Big Bang Hunter @ 10/14/2007 - 11:35 pm
When the likes of Joe Troll and Rovin go around on the internet spreading their distorted story of the sky is falling, we know we are right and we are winning.
I always wondered what kind of mental illness they are suffering from.
Comment by PCD @ 10/15/2007 - 8:46 am
“Joe Citizen” - My response to you is “yeah, whatever.” You start off with insults and then whine when you’re insulted back. Typical lefty trick.
When you agree with a lefty columnist likening Bush supporters to “‘good’ Germans who supported Hitler” you think you’re not going to be insulted in turn? For a 53-year-old, you sure have the mental acumen of a child. Grow up.
My response stands. I don’t care that you’re the child of someone who fought the Nazis. I’m the grandson of men who fought the Nazis, one of who was at Omaha Beach. One of those men was my defacto father, too. So don’t act as if that gives you any kind of moral authority or special understanding.
You lefties really, truly, utterly have no idea what Nazi Germany was like if you think modern America is anywhere near that horror. For you and Rich to think that it is, is offensive and deserving of nothing but insults and contempt. Screw you.
Comment by Big Mo @ 10/15/2007 - 12:31 pm