Clinton administration coverup?

The NYTimes reports today that prosecutor David M. Barrett, the independent counsel in the investigation into possible Clinton-era coverups involving the IRS, has issued a “scathing report accusing Clinton administration officials of thwarting an inquiry into whether Mr. Cisneros [former HUD Secretary] evaded paying income taxes.” Here’s more:

But it was not widely known that Mr. Barrett believed that Mr. Cisneros’s handling of the payments to the former mistress might have violated tax laws or that he suspected Justice Department and I.R.S. officials of criminal obstruction to help Mr. Cisneros avoid scrutiny. The New York Daily News reported on Wednesday that Mr. Barrett would issue a report alleging a Clinton administration cover-up of Mr. Cisneros’s tax problems.

The report included statements, in appendices, from former Justice Department and I.R.S. officials sharply disputing Mr. Barrett’s assertions. In addition, Barry S. Simon, a lawyer for Mr. Cisneros, said in a letter dated Nov. 8, 2005, and included in the report, “Materials that are now being publicly released are simply an effort to ‘try’ the case that” Mr. Barrett’s office could not win in court.

Mr. Barrett’s 746-page report said that the tax and obstruction phase of the inquiry ended without a definitive conclusion, but it declared: “These agencies’ treatment of possible charges against Cisneros was at best questionable and at worst represented serious wrongdoing. There seems to be no question that Cisneros was given special consideration and more limited scrutiny because of who he was – an important political appointee.”

Read the whole thing, and note the usual suspects’ attempt at discrediting the investigation. Surprise surprise.

71 Responses to "Clinton administration coverup?"

PCD says:

January 19, 2006 at 9:39 am

Excuse me, but how hypocritical is it to berate and persecute the American taxpayer for not paying “enough” income taxes and they give a pass and a “Get Out of Jail” free card to one of their cronies caught not paying his income taxes?
andrew says:

January 19, 2006 at 10:09 am

Back taxes are the issue of the day.
PCD says:

January 19, 2006 at 10:27 am

andrew, why are liberal Democrats so loath to pay their fair share of income taxes and think they should get a pass from paying them?
shingles says:

January 19, 2006 at 10:34 am

The liberal media strikes again!
tommy in nyc says:

January 19, 2006 at 10:45 am

The moguls on the right are going talk trash about taxes you’ve gotta be kidding me. Corportains here in the states get plenty of welfare. How many former CEO’s are residing in Club Fed these days. Nuff said. Sister Toldjah whyile you are an attractive young lady don’t bash the left on paying taxes. We pay plenty. Trust me I’ve been working since I’ve been 15.
Martin's Musings says:

January 19, 2006 at 11:05 am

The Barrett Report: Is The IRS The Ultimate Def…

Through its biased reporting, the New York Times is attempting to “cover up the cover-up”. While the Barrett report will shed some light on alleged obstruction and corruption within the Justice Department and Internal Revenue Service under the Clinto…
steve says:

January 19, 2006 at 11:07 am

The rightwing Socialists don’t like taxes because their greedy selves want it all. So the taxes that do get collected, they use corrupt lobbyists to get back as tax breaks. Like the $21 billion the Oil Industry was just given by their cronies in the Congress. Any tax advantage given to any group is Socialism. Peace
PCD says:

January 19, 2006 at 11:09 am

Tommy, We are specifically talking about Cisneros, a Clinton appointee who received the benefit of Clinton killing the investigation into Cisneros committing a crime. Now, if this were Bush, you’d be screaming and hyperventilating, tommy.

You want Rove fired solely on an allegation made by blatant partisans. No proof, just an allegation. BUT, when there is proof of wrong doing, you applaud Clinton killing an investigation. Can we say Tommy has 2 standards?
tommy in nyc says:

January 19, 2006 at 11:18 am

OK that’s fair enough PCD. You are correct and I’m a man enough to admit it. Shady stuff DID happen during the Clinton Era. It’s messed up that people with power can literally get over while the working man/woman gotta fight for every little itty bitty thing. It’s a class struggle if you can figure out where this Mick is coming from.
Baklava says:

January 19, 2006 at 11:20 am

Tommy wrote, “Corportains here in the states get plenty of welfare.

Taxes are a separte subject from welfare. Just so you know corporate tax revenues into the government have gone up very significantly over the last 2 years.

On the corporate welfare subject you’ll find this cuts across party lines. Conservatives don’t like to see it and liberals don’t like to see it but those in power (including Democrats and Republicans) do it equally.

For instance, Heather Fargo (mayor here in Sacramento, CA) was pushing this new Sacramento Kings stadium build and raise in the sales tax to pay for it. Example 2: The new stadium for the San Francisco 49’ers that the liberal politicians got through. Example 3: The percentage of the federal budget used for all of these pork corporate welfare projects has been the same before and after 1994. Republicans govern to the LEFT of CENTER and are not conservative in this arena at all and Democrats have governed/legislated to the LEFT of CENTER and do not show “compassion” for the poor by cutting these projects either.

You asked, “How many former CEO’s are residing in Club Fed these days

There is a number that is larger than you think. Investigations have proceeded and there have been convictions and it’s more than 10.

Tommy implied an accusaton with his comment, “don’t bash the left on paying taxes.

1) Left of center means bigger government. If you want to characterize yourself as left that means you want the government to be bigger than it is (even though it has grown every year for over 6 decades)
2) I defy you to justify the implied accusation concerning ST’s post. This statement, ““scathing report accusing Clinton administration officials of thwarting an inquiry into whether Mr. Cisneros [former HUD Secretary] evaded paying income taxes.” ” was a quote.
PCD says:

January 19, 2006 at 11:24 am

Tommy, class warfare is the rhetoric of the left. I see a culture of corruption that the Democrats have been participating in for a very long time. Nancy Pelosi is delusional if she thinks it is all Republican or that the Democrat minority is going to rule Congress.
ArizonaTeach says:

January 19, 2006 at 11:26 am

Powerline made the funny observation that according to the Times, the leaker was someone who had an axe to grind with the Clintons….whereas the NSA leakers are patriot whistleblowers.

Can’t make this stuff up.
tommy in nyc says:

January 19, 2006 at 11:35 am

Well Baklava your consistent argument that government is too large is a very legitamate argument. You fail to take into consideration several points 1) Prior to voting act certain American citizens were unable to vote in the political process 2)My father LIVED through the Great Depression when unlike today a smaller % of Americans controlled most of the wealth in this country.3) Birth control and the woman -rights movement liberated many women from unwanted pregnancies and abusive relationships.4) The Cold-War created a Military-industrial complex which to this day the American taxpayer is spending BILLIONS a year on crazy projects like the Pie in the Sky Missile shield. 5) Finally the ” Great Society” project created was a necessity created by centuries of opperision of African-American citizens. Wish it wasn’t that way but it is. Besides 60 years ago how many Americans lived without basic housing needs such as electricity and running water? I don’t want our poorest citizens living in the same kind of poverty as Afghanis Do you?
tommy in nyc says:

January 19, 2006 at 11:41 am

PCD class warfare is not rhetoric of the left……….. it’s as former Sen John Edwards said ther are 2 Americas. You should see the poverty I see every day here in NYC. Possibly you just might change yer mind about the most needy Americans. It’s hard to pull yourself by your bootstraps when you don’t have boots.
PCD says:

January 19, 2006 at 12:24 pm

Tommy,

It is time to get out of your limosine. NYC is not average America. Democrats have contributed mightily to the poverty you see in NYC. Ever hear of Tamminy Hall?

Poverty is not wiped out with constant hand outs. It takes behavior modification.

Oh, FYI, tommy, I lived in CT for 6 years and in SoCal for another 6. I’ve seen NYC, Brooklyn, the Bronx, Compton, Watts, Long Beach, etc. up close and personal. I’ve seen Black on Black crime and the excuses Democrats make for not holding lawbreakers accountable.

I’ve seen more than you’ll admit to. I have a different solution than you have, tommy. First, I’d clean house of every corrupt politician starting with Democrats who got elected on frauduelent votes. Then I’d open the records of the House Bank and House Post Office to expose those who lived high on the hog on taxpwyer money. Chuckie Schumer and Barbara Boxer are two names that come to mind here. Then I’d open up the seals on every investigation of the Clintons and their people. with the slate wiped clean, I think the people would know who to dismiss the complaints of.
Severian says:

January 19, 2006 at 12:29 pm

“Pie in the sky missile shield.” Gads, it gags me no end when people who have no idea what they’re talking about, and that includes “scientists” with a political axe to grind, come out with idiotic, moronic statements about missile defense. I’ve worked in the SDI arena, and it is still one of the most highly classified areas of work being performed. And it irritates me no end to have people sit there with all seriousness and whine that something is impossible when I know it’s not, and have seen it done, but can’t talk about it other than in generalities.

I’ve lost count of the times I’ve heard some pundit ramble on about something being impossible that I know is possible because I’ve seen it done. Heaven save us from self important, ignorant nay sayers.
tommy in nyc says:

January 19, 2006 at 12:51 pm

Corn I wrongfully assumed that you’re just a young adult spewing out comments from FOX News. I guess I was mistaken. Obviously there are shardy Sh**birds on the left side of the aisle. There is no disputing this fact. The same holds true for the Right however. Hopefully we can get past the name-calling. To Severian I Believe what you are saying about technology nut a missle shield can’t prevent a dirty bomb or a low flying missle fires like 20 miles off the coast in international waters. I think youse guys work is important but overhyped. There are some attacks which are simply indefensible. In no such way did I mean to offend you. Finally ST don’t stress the kitty you’ll be tossing her yarn for years to come.
PCD says:

January 19, 2006 at 12:55 pm

Tommy, what are you babbling about now?

Oh, speaking of the culture of corruption and lawless politicians, anyone notice that the Democrats violated the rules conceerning the allowed uses of the Library of Congress? The Right Politics didn’t miss it: http://therightpolitics.com/2006/01/18/they-were-for-following-the-rules-until-they-broke-them/

Now, will the controlling authorities START holding the Democrats accountable for their illegal actions?
Baklava says:

January 19, 2006 at 1:15 pm

Tommy wrote, “You fail to take into consideration several points 1) Prior to voting act certain American citizens were unable to vote in the political process I know what I’ve considered. You don’t. I recognize just like 99.9% of Americans probably realize that that history was regretful. We’ve overcome. We are in 2006.

Tommy wrote, “ 2)My father LIVED through the Great Depression when unlike today a smaller % of Americans controlled most of the wealth in this country. Not sure how this applies. For the last 6 decades government has grown every year. Are you saying it should continue growing (as you’ve implied you are a lefty in a post to ST)? When should government spending cool off? After 7/8/9 decades?

Tommy wrote, “3) Birth control and the woman -rights movement liberated many women from unwanted pregnancies and abusive relationships. Not sure how this applies. Are you saying that women should be dependant on the government or should they be treated as equals? I don’t know? How should government spending be affected in your eyes MORE than the spending currently for childrens programs, womens health, AFDC, Women Infants and Children program, etc. These programs have all been increased incredibly over the last 6 decades. Did you want more and more increases? I don’t know.

Tommy wrote, “4) The Cold-War created a Military-industrial complex which to this day the American taxpayer is spending BILLIONS a year on crazy projects like the Pie in the Sky Missile shield. Call it pie in the sky all you wish but there have been successful InterContinental Ballistic Missle intercepts during tests. It would be irresponsible as the greatest nation on earth to not continue when we’ve gotten so far to defend ourselves from ICBM’s from North Korea which they do have that technology now. NK has tested a launch over Japan (who wasn’t too happy about that I’m sure). I’d RATHER as a conservative have government spending on what the constitution SPECIFIES the federal government to do and that is provide for the defense. The technology gained from PRODUCTIVE research and development as opposed to taking from working people to give to people who don’t want to work (I’m not talking about non-able-bodied people here) is much better money spent. It’s not building a class of dependant on the government folks it’s actually money prescribed by the constitution and something productive and protective.

Tommy wrote, “ 5) Finally the ” Great Society” project created was a necessity created by centuries of opperision of African-American citizens. Wish it wasn’t that way but it is. Besides 60 years ago how many Americans lived without basic housing needs such as electricity and running water? I don’t want our poorest citizens living in the same kind of poverty as Afghanis Do you? Nope. I’m not living in fear that’s going to happen. HERE is a most interesting article on what America’s poor are like. America’s poor are better off than Europe’s middle class.

What is interesting is what seems to be your belief that you are implying by your question “Do you” Why is it that you can’t understand that conservatives “care” also. This is the essential problem between liberals and conservatives. Conservatives would rather teach a person how to fish than give fish because giving fish creates dependancy and isn’t helpful to the person’s well-being to be dependant. While conservatives recognize that “rank-and-file” liberals are “well-intentioned” we are simply letting you know that big government “give fish” policies will not acheive the end result that 99% of people want. If you want a “better” debate then don’t believe the worst about conservatives that prompt you to ask the question “Do you? “
PCD says:

January 19, 2006 at 1:17 pm

tommy, your weapons rhetoric is out of date. Exocets are passe and defensed. Ever hear of SeaWizz? One thing I will grant you, tommy. We may not be able to defense enemy agents within our country with enemy siccophants like the ACLU making sure the doors are wide open for them to enter this country at will.
tommy in nyc says:

January 19, 2006 at 1:20 pm

AH FLUNK IT PCD you ain’t being rational at the moment. To even suggest that G.O.P. policians are ethical is laughable!!
PCD says:

January 19, 2006 at 1:27 pm

tommy, as your habit, in the face of facts showing the craven lawlessness of the Democrat party, you make a baseless accusation from your prejudices and without any sourced proof. Now, other than Duke Cunningham, what do you have, tommy? Care to examine Harry Reid’s dealings with the same people? What about Chuckie Schumer and the identity thieves he harbors on his Senate staff?

Tommy, you try to waive the Campbell bloody shirt, but all you have is an old USSR flag in your hand.
Baklava says:

January 19, 2006 at 1:30 pm

Tommy wrote, “it’s as former Sen John Edwards said ther are 2 Americas. You should see the poverty I see every day here in NYC.

Yes, it exists Tommy. That isn’t the problem resolution. That is the problem recognition. The question is what do you do about it?
PCD says:

January 19, 2006 at 1:38 pm

Tommy,

I’m getting tired of your closednindedness. Care to address this:

Dems And The “Revolving Door”:
Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV): “Law-Enforcement Authorities And Others Said The [Abramoff] Investigation’s Opening Phase Is Scrutinizing … Minority Leader Harry Reid, Nevada Democrat …” (Jerry Seper and Audrey Hudson, “Abramoff-Linked Probe Focuses On 5 Lawmakers,” The Washington Times, 1/11/06)
“[A]bramoff Did Hire As One Of His Lobbyists Edward P. Ayoob, A Veteran Reid Legislative Aide. Manley Acknowledged That Ayoob Helped Raise Campaign Money For His Former Boss. Lawyers Close To The Abramoff Operation Said That Ayoob Held A Fundraising Reception For Reid At Greenberg Traurig’s Offices Here.” (Jeffrey H. Birnbaum and Derek Willis, “Democrats Also Got Tribal Donations,” The Washington Post, 6/3/05)
Baklava says:

January 19, 2006 at 1:39 pm

Tommy wrote, “PCD class warfare is not rhetoric of the left

It is in my opinion. It is rhetoric used to justify raising taxes on the successful/rich in this country. It gets poor worked up againt the poor and gets the idea of “redistribution of wealth” even more popular. Even though you see the top 50% of income earners paying 96% of the income taxes the poor are turned on more and more to the idea of more and more government services being provided to them. And from who? A responsibility society is one where people save money they earn. Take responsibility for bettering themselves. Do menial jobs in the interim until they can move up. Learn. 1st generation americans (immigrants) do well for a reason. They know that America has opportunity and they use it. As opposed to asking for the government to dole out more services as the solution you could join conservatives in the message of individual responsibility so that the safety net can be reserved and strengthened for non-able-bodied and elderly people. Would you agree to that concept?
Severian says:

January 19, 2006 at 1:40 pm

Defense spending, how people on the left like to say that’s wasted money. Defense spending is amazingly efficient, not only does the government get the items they bought (missiles, aircraft) they get a lot of the money back in taxes. The companies pay taxes, the employees pay taxes, etc. For example, most military and contractor employees are above poverty level, so we pay a fair amount of income tax. In addition, since salaries are above subsitance level, we go out and buy goods that are taxed when we buy them, the profits the company that sold them to us are taxed, when they spend their money it’s taxed again. I’ve believe that out of every dollar spent on defense the govt must get a siginficant part of it back in taxes.

I’ve often wondered what, exactly, the after taxes cost of some military products would be. Definitely less than the list price!
Baklava says:

January 19, 2006 at 1:40 pm

PCD wrote, “Poverty is not wiped out with constant hand outs. It takes behavior modification.

Blam. Tag team. Not only is it NOT the solution it actually EXACERBATES the problem Tommy!!!
tommy in nyc says:

January 19, 2006 at 1:44 pm

Know what that is a very fair question Baklava. To be perfectly honest I’m really not sue exactly how to resolve this problem. Shock! A Leftie who is honest enough to admit He doesn’t have all the answers. Well what I can tell you is what I won’t do and what I will. I wouldn’t cut taxes for the wealthiest Americans #1. I would also scale back our NASA and Star Wars programs. I would also scale back our Navy and increase spending on our Coast Guard. I would also leggalize marijuana and cocaine. Not heroin. Smaller expenses in law enforcement and imprisoning our fellow citizens and more revenue in the government’s coffers makes sense to me.
PCD says:

January 19, 2006 at 1:48 pm

Baklava, I should correct myself.

Poverty is not wiped out with constant handouts that perpetuate the problem. It takes behavior modification through which the person works to better themselves, not sit in sackcloth and ashes demoanding a bigger handout.
Lorica says:

January 19, 2006 at 1:50 pm

You know the funny thing is that everytime a meteor or asteroid is about to destroy the earth, it is that dog gone missile shield that ends up saving us or some other part of the Military Industrial Complex, known as NASA. If it weren’t for that Complex you would not have stealth technologies or the advances in radar or camouflage or sonar or …… All wonderful things that keep us safe. If you have seen it in the movies, the military has been working on it for 20 years. Everyone laughed at Reagan for SDI but alot of stealth came from that research. Many of our smart bombs came from it too. Seems like SDI was a good thing cause is saves soldiers lives, which is a VERY good thing. We don’t loose 5000 people a year like in Vietnam cause of all of these advances, ohhh also let’s not forget body armor for our soldiers.

Also, I am wondering about is how is OBL going to “launch” a missile from 20 miles off of the coast?? – Lorica
PCD says:

January 19, 2006 at 1:51 pm

tommy, why do you always come back drugging the masses with narcotics and hallucigens? Is that to pacify them and perpetuate their misery so you can get off running their lives?

Why do you wish to disarm and show weakness? Do you like being attacked?
PCD says:

January 19, 2006 at 1:53 pm

Lorica, OBl will probably use Teddy Kennedy or Walter Chronkite’s sailboat as a platform.
Baklava says:

January 19, 2006 at 1:58 pm

Tommy wrote, “I wouldn’t cut taxes for the wealthiest Americans #1.

In the middle of a recession you bet as a caring president who doesn’t want to see more lost jobs I’d cut taxes for ALL income tax payers (your implication that it was only for the rich is your continued pattern of misinformation). WHY? Because to let Americans keep more of their income is to help the economy and when the economy is helped corporations hire more and when more people are hired more money is earned and more taxes are paid and more people are LESS dependant. That is the end result you want. More people being less dependant.

Scaling back progams like NASA and Star Wars would cut government but in the WRONG areas. It would be cutting in the areas our constitution says the federal government needs to provide (for the defense) and it would be having our government spend money on social progams only as opposed to productive research and development type things that’ll help protect us in the future and many companies GAIN from the education and research done by many of the employees. We can’t all sit on the couch not learning and expecting to be taken care of. We will be destroyed as a nation and we can’t just all of a sudden pick up a book when we see that we are going to be attacked and learn how to fight the attack. We need a constant steady investment into our nations defense.
tommy in nyc says:

January 19, 2006 at 2:03 pm

PCD you can’t legalize morality the way the Christian right wishes to do. Just look at the crystal meth problem in the rural part of our country. Everything you need to make that substance is made from over the counter drugs. Why punish people for wanting to get high. This nation tried it once it was called prohabition can you see how well that worked out? So you know reducing our prison population which costs $30,000-80,000 per person depending on the locality makes sense for smaller government. It’s a travesty that the wealthiest nation in the world has the highest prison population in the free world for starters.
andrew says:

January 19, 2006 at 2:04 pm

“andrew, why are liberal Democrats so loath to pay their fair share of income taxes and think they should get a pass from paying them?”

Like I said. Back taxes are the issue of the day.
Bob says:

January 19, 2006 at 2:06 pm

What say you Madame Hillary about the “culture of corruption”. Seems your boy had it down while W was still in Texas.

And speaking of the “plantation”, then how did Hillary become so important? It’s not a plantation it’s a carnival. And the main atraction is whoever one party thinks is going to get them the best positive press and who can help get them more power.
tommy in nyc says:

January 19, 2006 at 2:07 pm

Baklava I don’t nee to look at rocks on the moon when there are rats running around the subway platform that I take to work every f*******g day.
Big Bang Hunter says:

January 19, 2006 at 2:09 pm

– Why…. you keep cranking out money and throwing it at the problem Bak… you know that. Its the “plantation” mentality that TeflonLady metioned in her race-baiting speech the other day, but applied to anything but what the left really means.

– The left panders to the “give-a-way” screed that they have deftly cultivated over the last 50+ years, to keep ’em down on the farm. A truly liberated, self sufficient lower economic class, able to actual improve its standard of living, would have no reason in this world to suscribe to a Socialist system, and the left which is already hanging on by its finger nails, would go the way of the Dodo bird.

– I remember one of the best examples of Liberal ideolog thinking back when India was going through some desperate times. A Democratic program fought like hell to give them 700 million tons of a special grain for growing wheat, hybridized and very expensive, designed to yeild many more tons of grain per acre. But they wouldn’t listen to the Conservatives, who tried to get the bill tied to a farm education program.

– The grain was shipped, and on recieving it the people ground it all up and made bread, and a year later were enveloped in a desperate food shortage ten times worse.

– You just can’t make people that believe in handouts understand they’re mortgaging their future, and the same people refuse to see the value of incentives, by playing the “humanity is enherently good” Kumbiyah card. Doesn’t matter how many times they’re proven wrong. They just refuse to accept it. ‘Course building things and planning and sacrificing a bit in the immediate takes industry, dedication, and hard work.

– Significantly, if you’re a student of the Muslim society you might have noticed that not one of their countries, with the exception of the UAE and a few smaller independent states, have built viable societies, prefering to war rather than build. the most glaring example of that happened when Arafat died with 68+ billion salted away in bank accounts while his Palistinian people starved and were goaded on in anti-semitism to murder because the Zionists have denied them a peaceful happy life. Everybody who’s honest knows the truth, and yet this is the model the Socialists want to change America into. Good luck. I think they have a better chance of finding life on the moon.

– Bang
PCD says:

January 19, 2006 at 2:19 pm

Tommy, all laws are a codification of moral standards. You like the illegal weed, and have admitted so. If you think anyone outside your family is going to put up being forced to work and pay taxes so you can be high and a usless load on their back you have another thought coming.

Thank you for revealing your philosophy. Edited. –ST

What I would do to rectify problems is a flat consumption tax exempting food, utilities, and housing. I’d implement ideas like Joe Arpaio’s in Phoenix. I’d bring back chain gangs for white collar offenders and for “socialists” who feel that others must be forced to work so they don’t. AND, tommy, I’m not talking about CEOs who are legally going about their businesses. I’m talking about potheads who think they have a right to steal from others.
Baklava says:

January 19, 2006 at 2:25 pm

Tommy wrote, “PCD you can’t legalize morality the way the Christian right wishes to do.

I’m not sure why this attack.

It is against the law to murder and yes people can legislate that. Of course there will be murderers and they should be put in jail. Same with drug dealers and violent “steal anything to be able to afford my next hit” drug users and rapists and burglars and robbers.

Tommy in the year 2006 wrote, “prohabition can you see how well that worked out OK. Which illegal drug besides mary jane do you want legalized? I know you admitted to smoking this one on this blog so I’m asking for other ones because this seems to be a big issue for you.

Tommy reduced his argument down to, “Baklava I don’t nee to look at rocks on the moon when there are rats running around the subway platform that I take to work every f*******g day.

Too many drugs ? You haven’t read anything that Lorica or PCD wrote about what gains this country has made in ALL sorts of areas as well as our defense due to spending in NASA and SDI and or other defense programs. You REDUCED it down to rocks on the moon when that was in the 60’s and led to important gains in aviation and satellite launching and boosting. If you can’t recognize or be grateful for the greatness and opportunities this country has to offer than move somewhere else because I for one as well as a MAJORITY of the people in this country see the value in defense spending and will fight people till the day I die over this issue.

Again, it is better to spend on these productive defense spending programs than to spend on people sleeping on the couch doing nothing. Someone working for a living is my idea of the last thing that should be cut (especially if it is for our defense).

I’m not saying there isn’t waste that shouldn’t be cut. Waste should always be cut.
Baklava says:

January 19, 2006 at 2:31 pm

I had hope and will give up on you. Concepts are lost on mary jane addicts.

You should know however Tommy that I do “care”, no matter how much you think I don’t (as implied by your question “do you” above).
PCD says:

January 19, 2006 at 2:33 pm

Baklava,

Tommy’s definition of care is how much money are you willing to have taken from you for his socioeconomic agenda. You don’t care if you don’t let him have full access to your wallet.
Big Bang Hunter says:

January 19, 2006 at 2:40 pm

– Oh and tommy used one of the current pithy platiudes of the left to denegrate the idea of truly trying to help people improve their standard of living, a typical left-wing ploy since thats really the last thing they want. what party would be crazy enough to want to eliminate 3/4’s of its base.

To paraphrase: “How can someone pull themselves up by their bootstraps when they have no boots?”

Common sense anti-welfare state answer:

“By teaching them how to make boots instead of just wear them till they fall off”
tommy in nyc says:

January 19, 2006 at 3:02 pm

Oh that’s laughable Big Bang Hunter their ain’t no freaking jobs with career potential here in the ghetto unless ypu are lucky enough to get a union job(which youse guys want to elimanate) Spare me the pontification. Also while our space and satelitte industries have done wonders for our nAtional security (another point I’m willing to concede I’m not a moonbat) there is a thing called redundency. It’s also refered to as job security in the name of “national security” Check out the SFTT website. Youse might learn a thing or two.
PCD says:

January 19, 2006 at 3:08 pm

Tommy,

Why do you think businesses should be forced to locate in an area where people think they have a right to steal from them? Why do you think that it is virtuous to be a victim?

Don’t you even get a clue when Bill Clinton sets up a photo op about having his office in Harlem, but NEVEE GOES THERE even with his Secret Service protection????
Baklava says:

January 19, 2006 at 3:17 pm

Big Bang wrote, “To paraphrase: “How can someone pull themselves up by their bootstraps when they have no boots?”

Yes. I don’t think he read about what the “poor” in America own in this country. The people “below the poverty line” in America own more and have more living space than the “average person in Europe. I’ll post it again.

He also continues on with thinking he knows what we want by saying, “which youse guys want to elimanate Let’s start speaking for what Tommy wants until he learns his pattern has to stop! Tommy wants to eliminate any income over $40,000 per year.

Again. Identifying so-called problems does not resolve the problems. Focusing on “feel good” solutions like the diverting of the conversation to attacks against people does not solve the problem. People can either learn to understand conservatives or lambaste them. As when I was a liberal I wasn’t interested in understanding conservatives either, I don’t expect that doing drugs would help a liberal learn that lesson.
tommy in nyc says:

January 19, 2006 at 3:33 pm

Baklava Iunderstand conswervatives all too well. Your crack about about veterans doing “drugs” was a shot below the belt. Grass is a plant not a drug.
PCD says:

January 19, 2006 at 3:37 pm

tommy, now you are really being dishonest. Bak said Liberal, not veteran. You owe Baklava and the readers here an apology.

Also, only potheads think Marijuana is just a plant. It is a drug you take to alter your consciousness. Can’t you be stand up about that?
Baklava says:

January 19, 2006 at 3:48 pm

I never mentioned veterans doing drugs. That my friend would be untrue.

PCD, Thank you.

BTW, Being a veteran isn’t an excuse to do things and I’ve mentioned this before. It doesn’t erase “personal responsibility”. You should take personal responsibility for your words. It’d be good to try to be accurate with them. You talk about our wants and wishes with no personal responsibility and you have personally admitted days ago to doing marijuana.

Anything I said inaccurate?
steve says:

January 19, 2006 at 3:51 pm

Inflation outpaced wages by .5% in 2005 and .7% in 2004. That means that in the last two years the 80% of the workforce who are paid in wages have lost 1.2% of their spending power. Just the opposite of what should be happening. Thanks bush. Peace
PCD says:

January 19, 2006 at 3:54 pm

steve,

George Bush does not set wages in this country. I wish you could sanly contribute to conversations, but it is obvious you can’t.

This country is not Command and Control Communism from the top like Cuba, China, or the USSR. Only fools believe that the President controls everything.

steve, if George Bush DID control everything like you think, then why are his supporters here working for a living?
Baklava says:

January 19, 2006 at 3:55 pm

So what’s your solution? Raise taxes and take more of their income?
PCD says:

January 19, 2006 at 3:58 pm

Bak, you really want to haar the garbage steve has between his ears? I’ll be surprised if he can sugar coat the vile things he wants. I’m not reading his mind, but recalling his various posts.
tommy in nyc says:

January 19, 2006 at 4:08 pm

I’m a veteran who smokes grass from time to time. I’m personally responsible(never convivted of a felony just misdemeanors) pays my taxes and works every freaking day. Just because you wish your perception of soberiety doesn’t mean you ain’t responsible PCD.
PCD says:

January 19, 2006 at 4:12 pm

tommy, that ain’t going to cut it. You were wrong. You are out of bounds here. No one said anything about veterans until you tried to play the victimized vet card. You aren’t taking responsibility for your words nor for your reactions to your words.

tommy, you lose big time on this one.
tommy in nyc says:

January 19, 2006 at 4:26 pm

Yeah right PCD get a clue.
Big Bang Hunter says:

January 19, 2006 at 4:31 pm

Steve – tommy…. then I take you don’t agree when a leader says things like:

“The leaders of states who would use terrorist means against us, as well as those who would consider using in one way or another weapons of mass destruction, must understand that they would lay themselves open to a firm and adapted response on our part,”

– You both would be saying Bush is out of his mind and warring on people and this is just hawkish rhetoric I suppose. Do you see any reason to the so called war on terror?

– Bang –
Baklava says:

January 19, 2006 at 4:38 pm

I’m a victim too PCD!

Do you want to be one?

We’ll all be one !!!

Now we can justify saying anything we want !
tommy in nyc says:

January 19, 2006 at 4:49 pm

Well shoot Bang speeches like that only ENCOURAGE nations like Iran and N Korea to attain nuclear weapons. Shoot who in their right mind would want to end up like Saddam? Make Threats to Make Tel-Aviv or Hawaii a parking lot is an insurance policy against American tanks pulling down statues praising your leadership. S**T I’d do the same Damn thing if I was in charge of either of those regimes.
ttyler5 says:

January 19, 2006 at 4:56 pm

Henry got in trouble as Mayor of San Antonio for messing around on his wife before he joined the Clinton’s in DC.
Big Bang Hunter says:

January 19, 2006 at 5:22 pm

B-b-b-but I thought the brotherhood of the great Utopian Socialisms had their fingers on the “right and wrong” of the world. Believed in “love thy neighboor and make love not war, and hug your enemy. How the “elites” have seen the “truth” for all the unwashed masses and can deliver us from the evil of ChimpyMcHalliburtonHitlerBush and all the wicked Neocons….. ect ect ect”?????????

– Except….Ummmmmm….. for one tiny detail….

– That quote isn’t by GW Bush….

– That quote, delivered in a speech just this morning is from…..

(wait for it)…..

“Charles Chirac!!!!!”

Heres the link

– Discuss

– Bang
Big Bang Hunter says:

January 19, 2006 at 6:00 pm

Erm…. make that Jacques… Charles is his nephew….. *snort*

– Bang
Baklava says:

January 19, 2006 at 6:05 pm

Bang,

You smoked the 4:49 commenter with that one.

OK. Bad “smoked” pun.
Big Bang Hunter says:

January 19, 2006 at 6:09 pm

– Yeh Bak… I had just finished a Krauthammer article…. Think I need a break…. Lefty baiting is fun, but tiring sometimes… *chuckle*

– Bang
Big Bang Hunter says:

January 19, 2006 at 6:50 pm

– Well well well….Looks like that little girl Haleigh Poutre , of Springfield Mass., whom the social services people were trying so hard to kill, has suddenly shown signs of responding to stimulus, and breathing on her own. Damn… another victim escapes from the “right to kill” people.

– I only hope she makes a full and quick recovery. Heres the link

– Bank
steve says:

January 19, 2006 at 7:19 pm

Just think of the world as a bigger wherever you live. Where you live there are a few whack jobs that work their magic so the local cops role them up. The terrorists are like that in the world, some are just common crooks and some are political crooks. Both groups use violence to extort what they want. Every country on earth has terrorists. You cannot kill them out of existence. You can discredit them out of business by being smarter and less brutal. All violence is counter-productive. Peace
Big Bang Hunter says:

January 19, 2006 at 7:55 pm

– I understand where you’re coming from Steve…I really do…Its a beautiful thought…If we caould all just get along.

– Unfortunately there are people in this world who don’t share your dreams or care about you and your family, beyond any way they can victimize you in some manner.

– I’m assuming you’ve made arrangements with close friends or some other male member of your family to protect your home, with force if neccessary, should anyone attack your property of family members….

– Peace indeed. Tempered by common sense.

– Bang
Pam says:

January 19, 2006 at 8:39 pm

Tommy- I respect you for admitting that there is a a good chance that just maybe there is some truth to Barretts report.

I will only take issue with this corporate welfare B.S. that I keep seeing. (it is not limited to you) Take a look at the past 2 years IRS receipts from businesses. The receipts have been their highest and that is with Katrina figured in. Businesses create jobs. Businesses paying taxes in the U.S. are vital to our economy.
Flopping Aces » Blog Archive » The Barrett Report says:

January 19, 2006 at 11:32 pm

[…] Sister Toldjah […]
PCD says:

January 20, 2006 at 7:48 am

Tommy, I have more than a clue. I’ve been proven right more times in our jousts. You have been beaten into submission more times than I care to count. You are the one that needs a clue. Too bad you don’t see the number of times you admitted you were wrong as a clue.
Lorica says:

January 21, 2006 at 12:35 am

Hey I do sort of take issue with Tommy’s insinuation that the mid west has a problem with meth. Alot of the reason that the meth is made here is due to the extreme openess of the countryside. You could easily get lost in the tens of thousands of miles of gravel roads in Iowa alone, and it is impossible to patrol those roads and so mobile meth labs were created to avoid detection. Which shows alot of the problem with law enforcement, be it meth or terrorists, if law enforcement is looking at it, there is a good possibility the criminally minded have adapted. Meth was made in alot of rural homes out here, but not so much anymore as the police started to patrol those homes more and more, so they went mobile. I believe that the actions by both Iowa and Illinois will virtually stop meth production when they made it illegal to buy sinus medication in vast quantities. But like I just said, the criminally minded will adapt one way or another. – Lorica

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