Another war critic changes tune

Ray Drake at Davids Medienkritik Online reports on a turn around in opinion from one of Germany’s most popular magazines on the war in Iraq. Consider it a must-read.

45 Responses to "Another war critic changes tune"

Big Bang Hunter says:

August 14, 2007 at 1:12 am

– Ok, as more and more Liberal rags hurry to jump on the bandwagon, or suffer the kiss of death for the Left should Iraq actually start to really turn around, and there are inescapable signs thats the case, I await with breathless anticipation the playbook response of the Kos Kiddies enmass.

– Lets see. The narrative should go something like….”See, we told you that threatening to leave Iraq would force the Iraqui’s to start lifting their own weight, and look how well its working. We support our troops, and this proves it!”

– Yet another glorious “victory” for the reality based loons, something along the lines of the Lamont victory in Conn.

– Fortunately, I’m sure most of the electorate will see through this feckless claim, when various writers shovel truck sized proportions of the antics of the far Left anti-war crowd for the past 7+ years, but they have no choice but to try to get away with it, because a stable Iraq, and a viable WOT continues to be the 800 lb gorrilla in the 2008 election cycle for the Dems, and their crazy aunts in the political attic, the Kos Klowns.

– Big Bang Hunter
Drewsmom says:

August 14, 2007 at 6:51 am

What the dems don’t want to admit is the surge is starting to work and they hate it. They are torn between reality and trying to pander to the insane loons over at kos, the fact that they went to the kos deal and not moderate Harold Ford’s deal shoud say it all. Harold was on spittin chrissie matthews show yesterday or was it Fox, can’t recall and he was trying to defend their no show at the DLC deal, but hell, it must be tough right now to be a dem. Man, I just hate that, NOT.
tommy in nyc says:

August 14, 2007 at 8:35 am

Oh I don’t know Drewsmom. The surge you are refering to says plenty about the inability of the new Iraqi government to provide security in their own capital city. Well maybe after the Iraqi governments vacation is over you can ask them. So while it is a good thing there is less violence currently in Baghdad it’s not something I’d go around tooting my horn about. Just more spin IMHO.
Baklava says:

August 14, 2007 at 9:41 am

tommy if you report progress in a city’s crime rate that has dropped.. is that spin?

No.

Do you HOPE to see us lose?
tommy in nyc says:

August 14, 2007 at 10:02 am

Well if you want to use a crime analogy that’s fine by me. Think of it this way if the NYPD couldn’t keep law and order here would I be happy if the California National Guard gave them a hand in restoring it? Yes of course I would. Anybody would be pleased by that fact. The reality is that I wouldn’t have a lot of faith that the NYPD would be able the retain order once the Guardsmen head back to California. Would you honestly? Now lets even be more honest would you trust anyone in a high level position in the Maliki government? I know I wouldn’t………What say you? honestly man.
Baklava says:

August 14, 2007 at 12:31 pm

tommy, I can’t speak like you do as if I know Maliki.

You write as if you know Bush, Maliki, Rumsfeld’s hearts or minds.

I’ve said about 50 times to you that you don’t.

Let’s put it this way tommy. Through all of the UNTRUE things you’ve said with far out there perspective and things not based on fact – – I don’t trust you.

Additionally, you are far from persuasive and highly negative.
Baklava says:

August 14, 2007 at 12:49 pm

Tommy, Here’s who I trust more than you writing about Iraq.

Michael Yon excerpts:

The mantra that “there is no political progress in Iraq” is rapidly becoming the “surge” equivalent of a green alligator: when enough people repeat something that sounds plausible, but also happens to be false, it becomes accepted as fact.

To say there has been no political progress in Iraq in 2007 is patently absurd, completely wrong and dangerously dismissive of the significant changes and improvements happening all across Iraq

I spent a month at the beginning of 2007 back in Mosul; the city where I’d previously spent about half of 2005 embedded with the Deuce Four. I noticed immediately that the Iraqi Police and Army in Mosul were remarkably more capable in 2007 than they were in 2005.
sanity says:

August 14, 2007 at 1:27 pm

Funy thing is that tommy bases this on a force that is newly established, that is like saying fresh cadets new out of the academy get throw into major crime areas where they don’t care who they kill and you have no backup.

The military are essentially the academy, they are training these civials now police forse, and iraqi army to handle these terrorists acts. They are also bringing together town elder in different areas to help.

Everyone expects Iraq to stand on its own so quickly, what they don’t understand is it takes time, time to train, time to get the government up, time to get representation, time to deal with the miriade of things that happen on a daily basis for security, governmental, providential, faith and assortment of things that they must deal with.

Everyone sits in there nice cozy rooms with governmental representation, a working government, working police and military to protect them, and they sit back behind theeir computer screen and complain that Iraqis should stand up for themselves and just do it.

Must be nice.

Unfortunately, it seems many americans forget how long it took to estabablish government, police and military in this country. Except the Iraqis are doing it with internal strife, and terrorist within and without making it harder for them to do so.

Tell me, how fast would America have gotten up and running with all that we have now, if Mexico and Canada were sending in terrorists and weapons to kill leaders and police forces?

But they should just do it…

Armchair quarterbacks, sitting comfortable in their chairs typing away while men and women on the ground in Iraq and that are embedded in with the troops are essentially ignored.

As Reid says, It doesn’t matter what the General has to say, I won’t believe him if he reports progress in Iraq……
tommy in nyc says:

August 14, 2007 at 1:32 pm

Well I do not think that I’m the most persuavise guy in the neighborhood but personally I think it is an almost unwillingness for most right-wingers to admit they got it wrong when it comes to Iraq. Sure I get carried away on pointing out the negatives with what’s going on over there but that doesn’t mean whatsoever that I’m mistaken. Far from it. The new Iraqi government is almost hopelessly ineffectual and corrupt. If you wish to call what is going on in Iraq a success be my guest go ahead Bak. I wouldn’t however and if you are realistic you would come to the very obvious conclusion that a democratic pro-Western secular stable Iraq is a pipe dream. No matter how long this “surge” lasts. I was right about us Dems winning the House and Senate in 06 remember. So while what I’m saying is bad news for this country just keep my earlier prediction in mind. And no I wouldn’t be sooooooo overjoyed by the fact that I’m right. In reality it’s a shame that our fellow veterans got to do multiple tours in the sandbox and that fact upsets me.
Lorica says:

August 14, 2007 at 2:05 pm

Tommy speaks again:

almost unwillingness for most right-wingers to admit they got it wrong when it comes to Iraq.

Please Tommy many of us had said that the switch from military activities to policing activities happened to soon. That we were not prepared for the mass of foreign fighters from Iran and Syria and AQ. Many of us believed that our military needed to switch back to military operations in 2005. In fact Petreaus made the plans for the surge at the end of 2005. It was Rummy who didn’t think we needed it. It is youse guys that keep coming up with bad news and more bad news to keep the people in Iraq depressed, don’t blame us for your problems.

Sure I get carried away on pointing out the negatives with what’s going on over there but that doesn’t mean whatsoever that I’m mistaken.

And my above point is proven by your own quote Tommy. Thanks. You tell us we refuse to believe that we are wrong, but you flat out deny being mistaken. LOL

I would also like to see some evidence of this mass corruption in the Al Maliki government. Please provide some links to some reputable sources for this. – Lorica
Big Bang Hunter says:

August 14, 2007 at 2:36 pm

– I am enjoying watching the panic begin to spread among the moonbat gaggle. *chuckle*

– The lamest excuse I’ve seen so far from the “bizzarro based community”:

– “Well you NeoCon nutters have been wrong about everything else, so who could blame us for thinking you were wrong about Iraq too.”

– Aside from being a truly dimwitted excuse, it doesn’t seem to occur to the loons just how much that highlights their lack of any real perspective on thier own when it comes to Iraq and the general WOT, other than being driven by pure Bush derangement, and group think, passed down from thier poly-sci profs.

– Ahh the joys of collectivism, “Assuring all Komrads everywhere, TEH CAUSE will hang together”.

– BBH –
Great White Rat says:

August 14, 2007 at 3:08 pm

Tommy gurgles hopefully:

The new Iraqi government is almost hopelessly ineffectual and corrupt. If you wish to call what is going on in Iraq a success be my guest go ahead Bak. I wouldn’t however and if you are realistic you would come to the very obvious conclusion that a democratic pro-Western secular stable Iraq is a pipe dream.

The new Iraqi government’s been in place for, what, a year and a half now? Even if you date it from the beginning of the Iraq war, that’s only four years.

Tommy probably doesn’t know it took our founding fathers longer than that to get the constitution right and establish a working government. And they had a long tradition of freedom and democratic government. The 1780’s version of Tommy would have been screaming “the new US government is hopelessly ineffectual and corrupt”, and that a democratic stable US is a pipe dream.
Big Bang Hunter says:

August 14, 2007 at 3:26 pm

– Actually GWR, as it happens thats exactly what the “Copperheads”, (Britsh loyalists) were doing for the entire 7+ years it took to complete the final version. You can see the same paralells today with the antics of the far Left, acting as cheerleaders for the Islamofascists. Good analogy. The only difference is the Left loons worship the French Socialism model these days, rather than the Brits, probably because Vichy France shared the dreams of “Supreme National Socialism” with a certain maniac.

– BBH –
tommy in nyc says:

August 14, 2007 at 4:43 pm

Lorica did make me laugh when he mentioned Iraqi corruption in the Maliki government. I honestly thought that anyone who follows what is going on over in the sandbox would accept that corruption in Iraq is a common as rednecks watching NASCAR. OK well if you type in the words iraq corruption on the search headline of msnbc.com and yahoo.com you would find tens of thousands of written articles about examples of it. Besides that BBH and GWR are just out there folks. Edited. –ST Pluto man. What is especially funny about these two cats is their mentioning the American Reveloution. Seriously is that the kind of freedom we should be spreading around the Mid-East. Yeah baby lets enslave Africans and give Native American Indian whiskey with blankets carrying smallpox after they helped us kick out the British. Do you think these facts are something to be proud of guys????? The best of all of this is that youse folks are serious in your beliefs.Unreal man unedited –ST real!!!!
Sister Toldjah says:

August 14, 2007 at 4:46 pm

tommy, please stop using the “f” word.
Baklava says:

August 14, 2007 at 5:10 pm

tommy wrote, “an almost unwillingness for most right-wingers to admit they got it wrong when it comes to Iraq.”

Chalk it up to us being unwilling to be persuaded by defeatism and lack of hope. It isn’t compelling. We’d rather change tactics 100 times. This 2 foot wide stump I’ve been digging out for 3 hours this weekend… isn’t out yet. But I’m going to hit it again tonight. I’m UNWILLING to admit I’ve got it wrong and I will succeed!!!!

Tommy without listening to us wrote, “If you wish to call what is going on in Iraq a success be my guest go ahead Bak.”

change the word “success” to “progress” and I might’ve not said you didn’t listen to us. I made progress on that stump. Michael Yon talks about progress in Iraq. Let me see here. The scale of believability has Michael Yon at 100% and tommy at 0%. No comparison..

tommy with complete and utter lack of perspective wrote, “Do you think these facts are something to be proud of guys?????”

Yes. I am proud of how this country was founded. In CONTEXT of the time tommy (if you knew history) you would know that the slavery wrongdoing was not localized to JUST the United States. ACTING like it was or being UNAWARE of the shame being all over the world does NOT score you brownie points or make you persuasive. It makes you seem hateful.

Around the world morality took hold because of Christianity. Slavery went from being used in 100’s of nations to a very low number of nations and where it is used now is Islamic countries mostly.

If you want to go spewing your hatred go ahead but it shows utter lack of perspective.

I am PROUD of how this nation has evolved. We are THE MOST GENEROUS (sorry for the caps) nation on this earth and it isn’t just because of our prosperity. Even measured against per capita rates Americans are the most generous charitable nation. We work hard at equality of opportunity.

Back to Iraq. If people in Iraq are prosperous why in the heck would they want to give it up to terrorists? They are getting a taste of hope. It can and will take hold no matter how your negativity is sold…
NC Cop says:

August 14, 2007 at 5:31 pm

tommy, please stop using the “f” word.

Did he at least spell it right, S.T.???

Another day, another childish, pointless rant from tommy. I don’t believe anyone said what is going on in Iraq is a perfect scenario. We just aren’t as willing as the left to abandon it and make the situation worse just for the sake of gaining some political clout.

You possess an almost childlike view of the world. You have no concept of reality in this country or Iraq. As far as predicting winning the house and Senate, people like you have been predicting that since 2000 so I guess if you say it every election, eventually you will get it right.

Everyone sits in there nice cozy rooms with governmental representation, a working government, working police and military to protect them, and they sit back behind theeir computer screen and complain that Iraqis should stand up for themselves and just do it.

I couldn’t have said it any better myself, sanity. We would frequently talk to citizens, including Sunnis, who would tell us that they cannot come out and cooperate or even be seen talking to U.S. forces because their entire family would be killed. Do you have any idea what that is like, tommy? Just sit there and smoke your dope and tap on your keyboard and leave the real world to the adults.
Big Bang Hunter says:

August 14, 2007 at 5:35 pm

– tommy has apparently opted to give up independent thought, for the promise of the utopian dream of a free lunch.

– He couldn’t resist the chocolate, so its probably too late for him.

– They lied to him and set him up for ridicule, by telling him that self-important mockery would pass as erudite thinking, and get him through debates they knew he would be ill-equipped for. Sad. The EuroMarxists imports truely care nothing for their converts. Simply tools to carry their hate-America-first message. Double sad.

– Somewhere orphan puppies are crying.

(This revolutionary message is brought to you by Laika the space dog – beaming truthiness to Komrads tinhats every where since 1957 -)

– BBH –
G Monster says:

August 14, 2007 at 6:09 pm

“Tommy in NYC” reminds me of Alan Colmes. I kind of think Alan Colmes is a plant by Fox News, because he comes across as such an idiot. Kind of like I’m tempted to believe that “Tommy in NYC” has been hired by ST as he comes off like such an idiot.

I’m not saying these 2 are a bad example of the left. I guess what I’m saying, they’re a perfect example of the left. If Hannity says the sky is blue, Colmes will argue that it isn’t. When Colmes gets cornered by his own words, he wants to change the subject, or discontinue the conversation.
G Monster says:

August 14, 2007 at 6:19 pm

Don’t get me wrong, I like Alan and Tommy, and especially like it when they open thier mouths, as they continue to prove that the lefts argument on most subjects is not very strong, and typically for political purposes, not solutions to problems.
tommy in nyc says:

August 14, 2007 at 6:47 pm

This day just keeps getting better and better just hearing myself get attacked for pointing out reality. First off NC Cop in 3 years AND 22 days in the USN I made a little over $32,000 altogether( I started as an E-1 and finished up a 3rd Class Petty Officer) how much did you and your co-workers make per month in Iraq? Probably alot more cash than what an E-4 makes in Iraq right now. Just curious how much. You are not at all being truthful in saying that I’m discussing a pointless,childish rant when it comes to CREATING more terrorism in the world which is exactly what the war in Iraq has produced. And what’s worse my tax dollars are paying for it. Lorica asked me earlier about corruption in Iraq like looking for details and it floored me. It is almost like looking for asphalt in a major American city. Big bang Hunter for some reason compares the American left (myself included) as the same type of frenchmen who supported in Vichy government,Baklava truly does stoke my anger at times with some of his comments. Well I’ve read Michael Yon too. I also would say he is fairly straight up for the most part also. But lets keep in mind that first off he was special forces in the U.S. Army so I wouldn’t go so far as to say he is unbiased. Then he makes the absurd statement that if the people in Iraq are prosperous why would they give it back to terrorists. They are getting a taste of hope? Living in a war zone is a hopeful place to be Baklava? Is it. I forget I’m too negative well at least I’m not full of sh*t along the lines of Cheney,Rummy Wolfowitz,Feith,etc,etc that we are going to be greeted as liberators.That Iraq’s oil wealth will pay for it’s reconstruction. And back to Michael Yon for a moment the insurgent who shot the 24th Battion commander LTC Kurilla in 05 was a guy that we had IN CUSTODY,turned his ass over the the Iraqi police and months later he is free and shoots Kurilla. That officer is lucky to be alive. I’m sure that was an isloated incident that an insurgement can get bribed out of an Iraqi jail right? The only damn thing this Iraq war has positively changed this nation for the better is that well after 43 is gone the American public won’t want to stomach another pre-emptive war in that part of the world. Sorry about the length ST
tommy in nyc says:

August 14, 2007 at 6:53 pm

Ill be back tomorrow got a train to catch and I’ll leave on a personal honest note I don’t drive here in NYC not because of the enviorment but 2 DUI’s is a felony and I don’t need that to worry about.
Baklava says:

August 14, 2007 at 7:09 pm

tommy wrote, “Baklava truly does stoke my anger at times with some of his comments.”

Sorry. But you lack reading comprehension.

You wrote, “Living in a war zone is a hopeful place to be Baklava? ”

I’m sorry. I may have written it wrong but I’m SURE if you weren’t wired so negatively in the head you’d understand that I meant IF Iraqi’s were prosperous they would taste what most NORMAL people in the world want and that is peace so that they can expand their prosperity and have their kids grow prosperous with healthy grandkids. I don’t know what makes you tick tommy but I can’t believe how negative and down you get on the Iraqi’s future. It’s almost as if you wish on them a humanitarian crisis.

We’d all love utopia. We DO NOT think utopia would exist (nor do we think a better situation would exist) by “leaving” Iraq.

I hope you can see a glimmer of what we are saying some day. Twisting what we say doesn’t get you there.
NC Cop says:

August 14, 2007 at 7:11 pm

First off NC Cop in 3 years AND 22 days in the USN I made a little over $32,000 altogether( I started as an E-1 and finished up a 3rd Class Petty Officer) how much did you and your co-workers make per month in Iraq?

I made $120,000 a year. Not sure what this has to do with anything related to the topic, but now you know. But since were on the topic, where exactly were you in Iraq and with what kind of unit?

You are not at all being truthful in saying that I’m discussing a pointless,childish rant when it comes to CREATING more terrorism in the world which is exactly what the war in Iraq has produced.

Oh but I am being truthful. You regurgitate the same old, tired mantra from the left. You never link any sources to your arguments, probably because you have none. To wit:

Lorica asked me earlier about corruption in Iraq like looking for details and it floored me. It is almost like looking for asphalt in a major American city.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. Here’s a tip: Don’t try analogies, just come out and say what you mean. Try it.

But lets keep in mind that first off he was special forces in the U.S. Army so I wouldn’t go so far as to say he is unbiased.

Hmmm, but let me guess tommy, if Michael Yon had come out blasting the war and criticizing it you would be hailing him since it came from someone “on the ground”, right??? What exactly is YOUR idea of an unbiased source?? New York Times? Hillary Clinton?

Then he makes the absurd statement that if the people in Iraq are prosperous why would they give it back to terrorists.

Yes, tommy, it’s a simple concept. If there is prosperity in Iraq then it’s citizens would want to continue said prosperity and reject what the terrorists offer. Even a few on the left has said an economic plan would help the effort enormously. Try getting your news off something other than the Daily Kos and you might actually learn something about the real world

well at least I’m not full of sh*t

Wrong again. Let’s move on.

that we are going to be greeted as liberators.

And indeed we were. I seem to recall the images of people dancing in the streets with out soldiers as they tore down the Saddam statue. I guess you missed that part too, huh tommy?

I’m sure that was an isloated incident that an insurgement can get bribed out of an Iraqi jail right?

What?! Corruption in the Middle East?!?! Once again you’ve outdone yourself, tommy, with your keen insight and endless research!! Where did you learn that bombshell???? Everyone knows the corruption that goes on in the Middle East and I dont recall anyone promising that Iraq was going to be a “little USA” do you? All I care is that the new government doesn’t support terrorism, doesn’t build WMD’s, and doesn’t fill mass graves like it’s predecessor.

the American public won’t want to stomach another pre-emptive war in that part of the world.

Indeed, tommy, take heart that Iran, N. Korea, Iraq, and Al Qaeda are all counting on that fact. How revealing that you seem to want to give them what they want.
NC Cop says:

August 14, 2007 at 7:13 pm

2 DUI’s is a felony and I don’t need that to worry about.

And another piece of the puzzle falls into place. Not to mention the people you might have killed driving drunk, right tommy? Nah, I’m sure you don’t concern yourself with those kinds of details.
Lorica says:

August 14, 2007 at 8:16 pm

Tommy I did what you said, on both MSN and Ask.Com, and the latest story I could find was March of 2007 from NPR, and all they talked about was waste of funds by the US Army, not corruption in the Iraqi Government. The next story was a BBC story from November of 2006 and it only quotes stuff that happened in 2005. Can you find me a story abit newer??? I certainly can’t find stories on massive corruption, except as trail ballons that YOUSE LEFTIES, i.e. NPR and BBC, put out to deceive people. Please provide me a real link and not just more of your blah blah blah. Thanks Much – Lorica
Great White Rat says:

August 14, 2007 at 9:44 pm

Bak, NC Cop, BBH, G Monster, and Lorica – nice job of taking apart the nonsense Tommy routinely urps up around here. Permit me to mop up what little you’ve left:

Probably alot more cash than what an E-4 makes in Iraq right now. Just curious how much.

Yeah, if you applied yourself as much as NC Cop does, you’d have been able to afford the good stuff for your bong…

You are not at all being truthful in saying that I’m discussing a pointless,childish rant when it comes to CREATING more terrorism in the world which is exactly what the war in Iraq has produced. And what’s worse my tax dollars are paying for it.

Creating more terrorism? How so? Let’s see…when we did nothing to fight terrorism, we had the first WTC bombing, the bombing of the two African embassies, the USS Cole attack, and many more. On the other hand, since 9/11, we’ve been on the offense against the terrorists, and no further attacks on US soil. It’s not a coincidence that the situation looks better in Iraq since the surge began and we took the battle more to the enemy. We’re not creating terrorists, we’re killing them, which suits me fine. Personally, I’d rather we be fighting the terrorists in Iraq with soldiers and Marines than in New York with firemen and police. Tommy would rather have it the other way around.

Big bang Hunter for some reason compares the American left (myself included) as the same type of frenchmen who supported in Vichy government

Hey, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck…

Go back and take a look at the text of any of bin Laden’s videos. Remove the religious islamic parts and you can’t tell the difference between that and the rantings of your average leftist….Kerry, Hillary, Kennedy, Tommy, Obama, Kos…pick any one.

Then he makes the absurd statement that if the people in Iraq are prosperous why would they give it back to terrorists. They are getting a taste of hope? Living in a war zone is a hopeful place to be Baklava? Is it.

Well, only an idiot – or a leftist – would see prosperity around them and say “you know, we oughta destroy this and make it a worse place to live”. So it’s understandable why Tommy would expect that to happen. After all, that’s how he votes.

As for living in a war zone – what was it before? Oh yes, now I remember. People getting gassed by their own government. Having to watch your sister gang-raped by Saddam’s psychopathic sons, and if you utter so much as a peep you get fed alive into a wood chipper. Very little food, electricity only a couple of hours a day. And that’s what you’d happily have them return to? At least in a war zone there’s the hope that the war can be won and the rebuilding completed…it’s already begun, thanks to our military and stand-up people like NC Cop.

the insurgent who shot the 24th Battion commander LTC Kurilla in 05 was a guy that we had IN CUSTODY,turned his ass over the the Iraqi police and months later he is free and shoots Kurilla.

So of course you, like a good little leftist, want to close down places like Gitmo and let ALL the terrorists out, not just a few. Yeah, that’ll stop them…

2 DUI’s is a felony and I don’t need that to worry about.

And worrying about you is what you do best. If it wasn’t for the felony rap you’d gladly go drive stoned and maybe kill a few people. And then you’d find a way to blame in on Bush.
Sister Toldjah says:

August 14, 2007 at 10:01 pm

tommy, getting help for your drinking and smoking problem was one of the best things you could have done for yourself. I sincerely hope you haven’t fallen off the wagon.
Baklava says:

August 14, 2007 at 11:37 pm

Tommy,

One last little point.

There were two parts to my 6 years in the Navy. The first 3.5 years I rose from E-1 to E-5 (Petty Officer 2nd class) and the 2nd 2.5 years.

The first part I didn’t save any money and I was spending money just like most other people and I racked up debt and had barely any money for food. I remember a point before the Navy (when I worked at Pizza Hut) where I said to myself, “self… if I earned TWICE as much as I’m making now I’d have it made”.

Well guess what? I realized that year in 1991 (3.5 years in) that I WAS making twice as much as I was at Pizza Hut and yet I WAS HURTING !!!!

I turned things around that year in 1991 in many ways. I transformed from liberalism to conservatism, saved in the final 2.5 years left in the Navy $10,000 and paid off my $5,000 credit card debt and did not owe on a car any more.

I realized tommy that I made my own bills, debt, money, choices and I was going to make things positive.

So when I finished my 6 years in the Navy I had $10,000 saved. I spent $6,000 on some education in the computer field (Novell courses), and things skyrocketed from there because I applied myself.

I’ve kept that lesson with me.

I live modestly even though I’m in the top 20% of income earners and have been for 10 years. I ride the BUS to work and back. I save 20% for retirement in a SEP-IRA plan.

And guess what else. My driving record going back 15 years is CLEAN. No accidents or tickets on my record.

I know this. Everybody in life had a chance to do what I did. I went to public school. I joined the Navy. I got out and invested in my own education and got a job and applied myself.

One of my best friends is black and he told me he changed to register Republican in 1999 because of his discussions with me. He just had a baby 5 weeks ago. I made him lasagna with homemade noodles because he isn’t getting much sleep.

Anyways… I enjoy sparring with you and I hope we both can move up from here. By no means do I think I don’t have anything to learn. Please do not be patronized by this post. Hope you see this.

Baklava (not flaky or nutty)
Baklava says:

August 14, 2007 at 11:52 pm

This is LONG but GOOD reading if you want to believe Spiegel on their new assessment of Iraq.
Sister Toldjah says:

August 15, 2007 at 8:57 am

Yep – that is the magazine article Ray Drake is referring to in the piece I linked to. Good reading.
Great White Rat says:

August 16, 2007 at 9:00 am

tommy, getting help for your drinking and smoking problem was one of the best things you could have done for yourself. I sincerely hope you haven’t fallen off the wagon.

I second that senitment, Tommy. Stick with it.

You may be 100% wrong on everything you post here, but you’re not a troll who just posts leftist drivel and runs away. You’re not afraid to return and argue your points, and I respect that.

Keep putting some of that preseverance to getting help, and good luck.
PCD says:

August 16, 2007 at 10:27 am

Tommy, Your problem is that your are a weak individual. You can’t face the reality of your choices. You hide in booze and drugs. You can’t accept the responsibility of your choices. You hate the successful in this country precisely because they are successful. In your mind they cheated you. You want to get even. You plot and plan like a thief. Basically that is all Liberals are. They are thieves who have to steal from the productive to make the headway in the world that the thieves were unwilling to make the sacrifices for.
Sister Toldjah says:

August 16, 2007 at 10:35 am

Thankfully, tommy is no longer hiding in booze and drugs, PCD. But he’s still a lefty, so we’ll have to work on that
TedintheShed says:

August 16, 2007 at 11:24 am

But let me get this straight…someone who is looking at things through an alcohol and drug haze is comlaining about other folk’s perspective?

Look, I have a great amount of respect for many folks on the left who presents sensible and well thought out arguments. I think that a the left’s ideas are needed just as much as the right’s in order to steer this country in the right perspective.

But c’mon here…

I want a realistic perspective here. One that points out both the positives as well as the negatives.

The Maliki governememt does contain corrution- that is well documented. To deny the progress in Iraq or to just summerily dismiss it as inconsequential is absurd.

Egads people- partisanship rules in these days. The Republicans is going to exagerate this progress, for sure just as the Democrats are going to downplay it. No one cares about the facts and doing wehat is right anymore- it’s about gaining power.
Lorica says:

August 16, 2007 at 2:03 pm

The Maliki governememt does contain corrution- that is well documented.

Well I hear people telling me that, but no one is proving the point. I am not denying that there is corruption in any government. What I am denying is the 10s of thousands of articles on all of this corruption.

I just typed in “Iraq Corruption” in MSNBC’s website, my 3rd search for this by the way, and there is a story that has this quote:

And Iraq’s daily spasms of violence are closely tied to maneuvering over the future control of oil, as well as rampant oilfield corruption. Oil monies skimmed off the top are said to be funding the insurgency, say U.S. officials.

But in another page and a half of story, there isn’t another word about it, and it never identifies the “US Official”. If it is so well documented, let’s see the proof. I have read some State Dept documents about corruption from last year, but that was being dealt with by us. If this is so rampant it is the most ignored story in the press. – Lorica
TedintheShed says:

August 16, 2007 at 2:35 pm

Here is a 2005 BBC article documenting some of the corruption. 44 arrest warrants were issued, including 2 ministers.

There are al Sadr elements ripe within the government.
Lorica says:

August 16, 2007 at 3:06 pm

A 2005 article Ted??? Even I bring up that article. I thought there was rampant corruption??? Where are the 10s of thousands of stories??? This is old news. Where exactly is al Sadr these days??? Last I heard he was in Iran. My point is that the extreme exageration of the left is once again kicked to the curb. Seems to be growing abit old. – Lorica
TedintheShed says:

August 16, 2007 at 4:20 pm

Lorica,

2005 isn’t that old- look how long is take to bring our officials to trial. Besides, the age is irrelevant. You asked for corruption within the governmeet, and I gave it to you. 44 different warrants, including 2 ministers (which are equivilent to having two Presdiential Cabinet memebers). That is widespread corruption.

But, here is a 2007 article for your convenience.

Oh, and try Google.

As far as al Sadr is concernemed- he is rumored to be in Iraq, althouigh his people still sit in governement in active roles.

I think the reason that we are now making progress in Iraq is because we’ve come to a point where we don’t really care what the Iraqi governement thinks. We’re there and are going to get the job done. it’s a good move.
Lorica says:

August 16, 2007 at 7:08 pm

Ted, I am well aware of what a “minister” in government is. I am not stupid and I am not acting stupid. I have not doubted that fact that there is corruption, what I wanted is for someone to stop throwing out the accusations, and actually come up with something that is abit more conclusive. But since most on the left think the accusation is as good as evidence, any accusation must be gospel truth. Finally your google search shows there is not just corruption that was being prosecuted, and not just an accusation of corruption. Of course you or tommy didn’t find it, I had to read thru for it, so I guess I should thank myself for finding it. But the majority of all your corruption accusations stems to that 2005 story, that talks about the criminals being caught, so the corruption is actually older yet. You know It would be a whole different topic if we were doing nothing about the Mass Corruption of the Maliki government, but apparently we are. Your accusations make you look abit over zealous. Anyway this article on the blotter is what I am looking for. Thanks for nothing Ted. 1 found and only 9,999 stories about corruption to go. – Lorica

LINK
TedintheShed says:

August 17, 2007 at 9:03 am

Lorica,

Never meant to imply that you were stupid. An intelligent person could well be ignorant of the level of a minister’s power in the Iraqi government. It isn’t a widely known fact, as most people do not concern themselves with such things.

I have not doubted that fact that there is corruption, what I wanted is for someone to stop throwing out the accusations, and actually come up with something that is abit more conclusive.

My understanding it that it was a well known fact- a given, just like the sky being blue and the grass green. Even al-Maliki admits to it (see the very article you quoted).

Along with the two articles I linked, plus the google search, I think that’s conclusive enough. This isn’t a court of law, but one of public opinion.

Unless, of course, you think OJ was innocent too, right?

Anyways, if you wish to continue to obfuscate the issue feel free to. I will no longer address it, as I was asked to provide evidence and I did, with credible sources. If that’s not good enough for you, that’s not really my concern.
Lorica says:

August 17, 2007 at 10:38 am

Ted you just can’t help but be condesending. You provided a search, you didn’t provide anything else. Hell even tommy can do that. So don’t go trumpeting your superior intellect. I have been up front from the very start, that my gripe with tommy’s comment is the tens of thousands of articles. Yet you in your infinite need to feel superior just had to take up a point that I readily concede. Yes there is corruption in Iraq, I have said it again. Now we know the extent of that corruption thru the article I link, not thru anything you have done. Now my next question, have you looked to see what we, the government of the United States of America, is doing to stop this corruption. Are you just the kind of person that happily convicts on the accusation, and lets the thing rot, or do you really care if to find that a solution is actually in play??? From what I have seen so far of you Ted, I suggest you are more the former over the latter. – Lorica
TedintheShed says:

August 17, 2007 at 10:57 am

Lorica,

I have only one response. Which is the more compelling fact:

1) There is corruption in Iraqi governememnt.

2) The person who provided the link to said to support the fact that there is corruption?

I don’t really care about #2. I’ll choose number #1 to be more compelling. If you wish to claim the mantle for #2, feel free to do so. I don’t care who provided the fact, only that it is indeed a fact.

So, do you feel OJ was innocent OOC?
Lorica says:

August 17, 2007 at 11:54 am

So, do you feel OJ was innocent OOC?

Can’t help yourself can you Ted?

As I have said in the majority of my posts, I have at no time argued that there is NO CORRUPTION in Iraq. At no time Ted. And As I have said, time after time in our discussion it is the extent of the corruption that bothers me, and any lack in prosecuting the corrupt people. Are we sitting on our hands doing nothing about this corruption Ted??? Can you answer this question Ted??? Please let me know. – Lorica
Sister Toldjah says:

August 17, 2007 at 12:11 pm

There is without question corruption in the Iraqi government. The level of that corruption is in dispute, and is not going to be resolved in this thread, especially not in the direction it’s headed. This thread is now closed.

Comments are closed.