Further proof that the self-loathing that comprises the far left doesn’t take breaks, even for a holiday. The Philly Inquirer’s Chris Satullo scribbles:
Put the fireworks in storage.
Cancel the parade.
Tuck the soaring speeches in a drawer for another time.
This year, America doesn’t deserve to celebrate its birthday. This Fourth of July should be a day of quiet and atonement.
For we have sinned.
We have failed to pay attention. We’ve settled for lame excuses. We’ve spit on the memory of those who did that brave, brave thing in Philadelphia 232 years ago.
The America those men founded should never torture a prisoner.
The America they founded should never imprison people for years without charge or hearing.
The America they founded should never ship prisoners to foreign lands, knowing their new jailers might torture them.
Such abuses once were committed by the arrogant crowns of Europe, spawning rebellion.
Today, our nation does such things in the name of our safety. Petrified, unwilling to take the risks that love of liberty demands, we close our eyes.
We have done such things, on orders from the Oval Office. We have done them, without general outrage or shame.
Abu Ghraib. Guantanamo. CIA secret prisons. “Rendition” of prisoners to foreign torture chambers.
[...]
We have betrayed the July 4 creed. We trample the vows we make, hand to heart.
Don’t imagine that only the torturer’s hand bears the guilt. The guilt reaches deep inside our Capitol, and beyond that - to us.
Our silence is complicit. In our name, innocents were jailed, humans tortured, our Constitution mangled. And we said so little.
[...]
So put out no flags.
Sing no patriotic hymns.
We deserve no Fourth this year.
Let us atone, in quiet and humility. Let us spend the day truly studying the example of our Founders. May we earn a new birth of courage before our nation’s birthday next rolls around.
Things like this just don’t compute with me. Even when I was a leftie, I was never ashamed to fly my flag on any day, especially on days like Independence Day, nor was I hestitant to say how much I loved this country, even during the times when I felt it was veering off course. That continued even through the Clinton years after I saw the light and became a conservative. There were many, many things Bill Clinton did during his tenure that made me ashamed of him, but I sure as hell was never ashamed of my country.
That’s where (or one of the places) where Satullo veers wildly off track. Ignoring for a minute his exaggerations, misrepresentations and lies about the direction this country’s gone since GWB was elected president, he makes the mistake so many other self-loathing far lefites make when expressing their disgust over a president’s policies: he implicates our country itself. “America sucks!” they whine because “the President sucks!!”
Show of hands how many of you hated this country when Bill Clinton was president? I bet there aren’t very many. That’s because in spite of the many disagreements and outright disgust that many conservatives had for President Clinton, one thing they never forgot was how fortunate they were to live in this country, to be able to fly (not burn) the flag, a right that hundreds of thousands of American troops died to protect and uphold. Most conservatives flew the flag during the Clinton years in spite of their dislike of both him and his liberal policies, because they knew he wasn’t always going to be president and that one would come along and right some of his wrongs.
And he did.
Deep-in-the-gut love for this country keeps conservatives in it even though the candidates they want to win an election sometimes in the end turn out not to be the victor(s) on election night. You won’t find many conservatives threatening to leave this country and move to countries like our neighbors to the north Canada if their candidate doesn’t win. They stay on and fight. You don’t find many conservatives who have to “seek therapy” if their candidate loses an election. They man-up, and prepare for the coming battles. They realize that, after all, this country is indeed worth building up and fighting for, no matter who is sitting in the big chair.
None of this is to say that liberals aren’t patriotic. I know many who are, and I’m sure most of you do, too. But there are, I think, a not so insignificant number of far left self-haters like Chris Satullo just itching to find a reason to drag the country down to their level. The old saying “misery loves company” applies here, methinks.
Warner Todd Huston says it all here:
Happy July Fourth, folks. Be proud of this great nation, Satullo’s nonsense aside. The U.S.A. is still the shining light on a hill shining the light of freedom on all the world. Anti-Americans like Satullo might have blinders on, but for those willing to see, we stand like a rock.
Unfurl those flags and let freedom wave.
*salutes* Amen! 
Nobody tell Satullo, but in the war to establish this country, one of its most celebrated founders tended to have deserters shot without trial.
So, this “we’ve spit on the memory of those who did that brave, brave thing in Philadelphia 232 years ago” is a little overwrought — they would have had less of a problem with us waterboarding Khalid Sheikh Mohammed than with Satullo’s hand-wringing over it.
Comment by McGehee @ 7/2/2008 - 10:50 pm
Great post … the guy’s obviously an idiot!
Comment by Americaneocon @ 7/2/2008 - 10:56 pm
Yeah, fine. This knee biting cringing pee stained twit doesn’t really expect me to follow his dictates, does he? Sorry to say that I don’t ask the glittering literati what opinions I ought to hew to. Not even such obviously worthy exemplars as this.
Who was it last year penned the obligatory “Don’t celebrate the Fourth because this county sucks” screed? Because I ignored him and was grateful to my nation anyway.
Yeah, I’m not worthy.
Comment by Steve Skubinna @ 7/3/2008 - 12:17 am
Unwilling to take the risks that love of liberty demands??? So, what he’s saying is that watching 3,000 of your fellow citizens die in a fiery nightmare is the price you pay for living in a democracy, so what the heck?!
What an idiot.
As far as torture is concerned, if pouring a bucket of water on someone’s head helps saves the lives of thousands of people, I say the left is hot and the right is cold.
Excellent point. They would hang you for things like TREASON in those days.
Comment by NC Cop @ 7/3/2008 - 12:49 am
Lefties always just talk about leaving the greatest Nation known to humankind; then back down when offered a one-way ticket to the supposed paradise of their choice. Happy 4th everyone!!!
Comment by Tom TB @ 7/3/2008 - 7:22 am
Chris Satullo is so patriotic, he wears a tri-cornered asshat!
Comment by Proof @ 7/3/2008 - 7:53 am
Far leftie maybe, but I didn’t get “America hating” from what he was saying. Ashamed? yes. I think he went too far, but I see his point, torture is wrong. We like to think we’re still the shining light on a hill shining the light of freedom on all the world, but most of the world no longer sees us that way. We need to get back on course.
Comment by IfOnlyMcCainHadWon @ 7/3/2008 - 8:14 am
Hope he stays on and stews in his own juices.
Comment by Neo @ 7/3/2008 - 10:09 am
I Googled and . . .
The accompanying picture
http://tinyurl.com/6m6tdm
Shows him as a man of late middle age, which surprised me at first, but then I realized he is one of those Vietnam Era people who lived through Der Kulturkampf of the 1960s.
“And so we beat on, boats against the current…”
Comment by Leslie @ 7/3/2008 - 10:43 am
Mr. Satullo is a prime example of the far left ideology that is so out of touch with the values of mainstream America and how the prosecution of war is executed. 99% of these “prisoners” were picked up on the field of battle while attempting to be complicit in causing the death of American soldiers. When holding our standards of treatment of enemies far above any other country, where is Mr. Satullo’s outrage of the treatment of those captured by our enemies? Crickets chirping.
Two nations liberated from tyranny and this nation NOT BEING ATTACKED in seven years makes me proud to unfurl my American Flag and celebrate the independence and fortitude of a nation that believes “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness”
The shame of folks like Mr. Satullo and his elitist crowd that preach defending human rights fail miserably when these unalienable rights are extended beyond our shores.
The Forth of July is a celebration of nation that recognized these rights and I intend to celebrate it. Mr. Satullo can stick a fire-cracker up his ass and I’d be glad to light it.
Happy 4th everyone!
Comment by Rovin @ 7/3/2008 - 10:51 am
Sister, you said it all!
Comment by benning @ 7/3/2008 - 10:52 am
Who did we torture and exactly what was the torture you speak of?
We are still the shining light, which is why we are flooded with immigrants coming to this country. It’s been that way and it still is. Frankly, I couldn’t care less what other countries “think” of us. Whenever there is a natural disaster across the globe or when thousands of people need help, we’re the first ones to step up.
The rest of the world already disliked the U.S. for decades. Iraq and the so called “torture” scandals have merely given them a catalyst, nothing more.
Also, how exactly do we get “back on course” in your opinion?
Comment by NC Cop @ 7/3/2008 - 1:52 pm
I just never can understand people who seem so willing to look upon our nation in such negative terms, always focussing upon that which is rare as if it is common, and doing so while dismissing all that makes us great. On our worst day there is no better nation on earth. Satullo should really just go pound sand.
Comment by Marshall Art @ 7/4/2008 - 12:47 am
“Nobody tell Satullo, but in the war to establish this country, one of its most celebrated founders tended to have deserters shot without trial. ”
Of course, my understanding is that George Washington strongly rejected the torture and mistreatment of prisoners:
“Washington decided to behave differently. After capturing 1,000 Hessians in the Battle of Trenton, he ordered that enemy prisoners be treated with the same rights for which our young nation was fighting. In an order covering prisoners taken in the Battle of Princeton, Washington wrote: “Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to Complain of our Copying the brutal example of the British Army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren…. Provide everything necessary for them on the road.” ”
I think - with the exception of IfOnly . . . - that ST and commenters aren’t understanding Satullo’s piece. He’s not saying America sucks, he’s not saying that he hates our country - not at all. What he’s saying is that we - and this being a democracy, yes, we, - have failed to live up the glorious ideals that make our country great, have brought shame upon our nation. And that to then blithely and obliviously celebrate those ideals is absurd and insulting - instead, we should be ashamed that we have failed in such a manner, and “in quiet and humility” strive to be worthy of our heritage.
Obviously one can - and you do - disagree with his assessment of what we’ve done, but that’s an entirely different matter.
Comment by Dan S. @ 7/4/2008 - 3:47 pm
Which is exactly why hangings need to get under way ASAP with every traitor and saboteur against America. We can start with some Congress critters and editors in just about every major newspaper.
Indeed.
There was and is nothing blithe nor oblivious about celebrating the day the Continental Congress adopted the Declaration of Independence and John Hancock signed it! Nothing! Not by this old jarhead or his family and friends of whom are many.
There was nothing blithe nor oblivious when the United States granted the Philippines independence in 1946 on July fourth either and another reason to celebrate, especially if you happen to be a Flip. No blithe oblivion for the survivors at Vicksburg in 1863, when on this day the Confederate force surrendered after a 47 day siege to the Union troops.
Perhaps July 5th is more to the liking of this pompous condescending ass, Satullo……….. P.T. Barnum was born.
Comment by forest hunter @ 7/4/2008 - 10:57 pm
So I guess this is just YOUR opinion, correct? Just because you believe this, does that make it so? No, it doesn’t.
Can anyone tell me who we have tortured and how we have tortured them? I’m still waiting for an answer to that one, and please spare me the pouring a bucket of water over someone’s head garbage. If that’s torture then I’m going to bring my older brother up on charges of torture for many times during my childhood. Good grief!
Comment by NC Cop @ 7/5/2008 - 12:33 pm
“So I guess this is just YOUR opinion, correct? Just because you believe this, does that make it so? No, it doesn’t.”
Well, obviously it’s not just my opinion - clearly it’s also Satullo’s opinon, and the opinion of millions of our fellow citizens. But whether or not it’s true is irrelevant to the point I was making above. That is, that Satullo’s sentiments are not an example of pathological far-lefty self-loathing, and especially not an example of hating or being ashamed of our country. Rather (even if you disagree with him), that they’re motivated by love of our country and pride in the ideals it stands for - things which Satullo (and I, and millions of our fellow citizens) see as being besmirched by the things he lists - torture, imprisonment for years without charge or hearing, rendition of prisoners to countries that can be expected to commit even worse atrocities.
So, let me ask you to imagine - what would happen if the United States had been doing things that you recognized as genuine atrocities, as fundamental repudiations of the values and ideals that you feel our country was based on? (ST’s citing of conservative dislike of Clinton and his “liberal polices” (as others elsewhere have asked - which? welfare reform? DOMA?) really doesn’t rise to that level, and suggests a certain lack of understanding). What would you do when July 4th rolls around?
There are various options. One might, to quote myself, celebrate the day blithely and obliviously - in terms of such abuses, that is. The pride and dedication might well be real, but there would seem to be a fundamental disconnect: either the day’s merely an excuse to take off work and have a cookout, or there’s no connection being made between the values being celebrated and their current perversion.
One might celebrate it oppositionally -re-affirm these values against the horrible, monstrous Others who have done such horrible things to our country. That’s the reaction that comes most naturally to me, but Satullo’s not letting himself - ourselves - off that easy. He insists that we, too, bear some of the guilt, for what have we done? Precious little.
And then there’s Satullo’s way, as expressed in his column. It’s a tone that - intentionally or not - wouldn’t be unfamiliar to many of the Old Testament prophets, and closer to home, certainly not to the Puritans of Massachusetts Bay Colony. Indeed one could get all Albion’s Seed-y about what centuries-old regional differences mean for competing ideas of patriotism even today, and why Satullo’s jeremiad so utterly fails to compute with Toldjah - but it’s more complex than that, I’m sure.
(Now, I’m sure there are other reasonable ways to react, to be sure, and one doesn’t have to agree with Satullo’s suggestion - but understanding it is nice, rather than going on about America haters like it’s 2002/3.)
“and please spare me the pouring a bucket of water over someone’s head garbage. If that’s torture then I’m going to bring my older brother up on charges of torture for many times during my childhood.”
Well, clearly you come from an alternative universe where all we did was dump a bucket of water over someone’s head. It’s understandable that you’d be so confused - after all, your world sounds like a much nicer place. But this isn’t your world and that’s not what’s been happening. Which gets us back beyond ‘for the purposes of argument’ to the conviction - Satullo’s, mine, and millions of our fellow citizens - that we have so badly failed to live up to our nation’s ideals, and have brought shame upon it. That we have, for example, tortured. But it’s increasingly difficult for me to have this argument while keeping up with standards of politeness, given such obscenity - and at this point, I don’t think anything I’m going to say will help people see this who haven’t yet. New eyes, maybe, in a sense, and whatever brings such changes.
But no, on that question - of torture - it’s not just my opinion, not at all. Over two-thirds of Americans recognize waterboarding (etc.) as such - at least they did in November -, for whatever worth you give that. At least in the past, so has our nation, our military, and former POW John McCain - see for example here, and also look up waterboarding on wikipedia to see links to other authorities who have reaffirmed this reality. There are also an increasing set of reports on how the techniques we’ve used seem to have been borrowed from Cold War-era Communist China, techniques used to elicit false confessions and originally studied - after our soldiers had been subjected to them - so we work out ways to help Americans resist torture at the hands of our enemies.
And if that doesn’t make you proud of what we’ve done as Americans - well, then you, my friend, are a patriot. Or at the very least a decent person.
Comment by Dan S. @ 7/5/2008 - 4:11 pm
Thanks for making my point Dan. Whether or not something is true makes no difference to people like yourself.
Indeed, but that still doesn’t make it a fact, it’s still an opinion. Mob rule doesn’t necessarily make them right.
Ok. AGAIN I ask you, who has been tortured, where have they been tortured, and how have they been tortured? Please provide names, dates, and locations please. You seem to want to criticize your own government with little to no information/facts and then demand that terrorists, who fight for no nation and wear no uniform, be given all the rights and liberties as a U.S. citizen. Interesting.
Since we’re talking about torture though, Dan, let me ask you something. What if you’re child, wife, parent or whoever you loved the most in this world was dying of a rare disease? They had less than 24 hours to live unless they were given the cure. In the next room is a man who has that cure, but has hidden it and refuses to give it to anyone. What would you do to get it from him? Would you go in and ask him in a stern voice to give it to you? After he spit in your face and you watched your loved one slowly dying, what would you do? My guess is you would do a lot worse things than pour a bucket of water on his head. Perhaps, I’m wrong.
No, Clinton was just responsible for the deaths of 18 Special Forces soldiers in Somalia with his direct incompetence and concern about his poll numbers (something that seems to be priority one with democrats). Heavens to Betsy at least it wasn’t as bad as putting prisoners in cold rooms or using sleep deprivation, the horror! The horror!
To answer your question though, I would still celebrate the 4th of July. The United States of America is about more than the president. It’s about the greatest nation on earth where people from all over the world come to live free. I would still be proud of my country, but I guess thats just one of the many differences between people like you and me.
Oh, I’d be willing to bet I live in more reality than you do, Dan. Just a hunch, yet I digress.
I live in a world where there are MILLIONS of people who are willing to completely disregard all the rules to kill as many people as possible. I live in a world where they dress in civilian clothes and deliberately target women and children in an attempt to advance their “cause”. I live in a realistic world where I acknowledge that the “rules of war” do not apply to them, so you must come up with some new ones.
A notion that I, and millions of other Americans, wholeheartedly disagree with.
Indeed, Dan, I know exactly how you feel.
Not at all, Dan, I’m no patriot. I’m just someone who chooses to see the world the way it is, you know, living in reality. Someday maybe you can join us….if it’s not too late.
Comment by NC Cop @ 7/5/2008 - 5:40 pm
“Thanks for making my point Dan. Whether or not something is true makes no difference to people like yourself.”
Well, obviously it makes a difference - but my aim here has been mostly to explain why Toldjah’s offhand accusations of America-hating were so completely off base. (”Far leftie” is also a bit absurd, insofar that the term has any meaning in terms of the American political spectrum, beyond simply a demonizing screech a la ‘Leper!! Outcast! Unclean!). As I mentioned, when it comes to the minority of Americans who still believe the ‘Torture? What torture? I don’t see any torture (maybe some fraternity pranks)! But if we did, well, so what?! It was totally justified’ line - well, maybe there are arguments that can sway them, but I don’t delude myself into thinking I have that sort of skill.
[improbable hypothetical scenario]
And that’s why we don’t base public policy on individual responses in extremis, however human, just as we don’t base our justice system upon long-running feuds and angry mobs. Lex talonis ain’t the name of a Superman villain, y’know.
“No, Clinton was just responsible for the deaths of 18 Special Forces soldiers in Somalia”
As I said: however loath-worthy, however shameful, still not something you seem to see a fundamental, far-reaching, and long-running repudiation of our basic principles.
“The United States of America is about more than the president.”
Indeed. And if it was merely a rogue president secretly torturing prisoners in the White House basement, that would be one thing. But that’s not what’s happened. Not even genuine far-lefties think that.
“It’s about the greatest nation on earth”
But what makes it such? Is something good because America does it, or is America good because it does good things? And if the latter, what does it mean if we stop?
“I would still be proud of my country”
But what are you being proud of? Remember, in this scenario the U.S. is committing what you see as atrocities, repudiating our most fundamental values. Would you be proud of that? Surely not! There would be a glaring, grating mismatch between your treasured ideals and what you saw our country becoming - so how to deal with that? It should be clear that - agree or disagree - sentiments like Satullo’s are motivated not by hatred of America but love for it; that it’s because he takes such pride in our country’s ideals that he’s so outraged by trespasses against them.
“Heavens to Betsy at least it wasn’t as bad as putting prisoners in cold rooms or using sleep deprivation, the horror! The horror!”
Again, it seems that we developed the various techniques you’re downplaying here based - at least partially - upon tortures our servicemen were subjected to by Communist China during the Korean War, as well as how we understood the Soviet Union and its allies treated prisoners.
“I live in a world where there are MILLIONS of people who are willing to completely disregard all the rules to kill as many people as possible. I live in a world where they dress in civilian clothes and deliberately target women and children in an attempt to advance their “cause”.”
Whether there are “millions”, it’s hard to say, and I suspect that even among all those sympathetic to the “cause”, only a relative few would ever get around to killing anyone, let alone as many people as possible. (Of course, one of the classic ways terrorists advance their “cause” - given that they’re usually, pretty much by definition, in an asymmetric warfare kinda situation - is by causing their enemy to respond in ways that radicalize the affected population, boosting both support and recruitment. You should also amend your “ terrorists, who fight for no nation and wear no uniform, be given all the rights and liberties . . .” to “alleged terrorists - after all, they’re not wearing unambiguous uniforms, but are dressed in civilian clothes. In some cases that’s not far from a formality, but there seem to have been cases - who knows how many - of mistaken identity, limited info, indiscriminate roundups, innocents brought in due to bogus ‘tips’ motivated by greed or resentment . . . (indeed I’ve even seem claims that (unsuspectedly) anti-American forces got our troops to pick up pro-American supporters by feeding them bad info - what happened to them after that . . . ).
But anyway - yes, arguably we do have to make some adjustments, as we’ve been doing - see COIN doctrine, for example. Things that don’t have anything to do with facing the situation: torturing prisoners, imprisoning people for years without charge or trial; shipping prisoners to other countries - like Syria - for them to be tortured in ways that we can’t (yet) legally carry out first hand, etc.
“Indeed, Dan, I know exactly how you feel.”
Glad there’s something we can agree on!
“Not at all, Dan, I’m no patriot”
Well, that’s a very forthright thing to say.
Comment by Dan S. @ 7/6/2008 - 1:42 am
Anyway - Satullo responds.
Comment by Dan S. @ 7/6/2008 - 2:15 am
Once again, that’s your opinion. I think she was spot on.
I see. So it’s a matter of terminology. So, no doubt, you find the term “far right” or “neocon” offensive, right? I’m sure you have posted on other sites when people refer to “far righties”, right? Somehow I don’t think so.
I see. This must be the response to my asking the who, what, where, and when people have been tortured by the United States. Apparently you still can’t answer it. How strange.
Again, thanks for proving my point by completely dismissing the scenario and declaring it “improbable”. I was simplifying a scenario in order to make a point. Apparently, I didn’t make it simple enough. My apologies.
Really? Well, please, enlighten us all and tell us what did happen?
LOL!! Now who’s living in the fantasy world?! That’s ok, Dan, keep living with your head in the sand. If you pretend the threat doesn’t exist than it must not. I believe that was the Clinton motto!
Well, let me ask you Dan. If we can’t use sleep deprivation, cold rooms, and loud music, what can we use? How do you get information out of an individual who has sworn to God to kill as many people as possible and never surrender? Perhaps, a hot cup of coffee and saying pleeeeeeeeeease? You seem to have all the criticisms, but no answers?
Goodness, I wasn’t aware the Islamic terrorists posted the recruitment numbers for everyone to see. Do you have a link, please? Of course, I kid.
Yes, Dan, that’s a great idea. Let’s treat it like a law enforcement problem, that’s the ticket. After all, it worked out pretty well before 9/11. Brilliant!!
Don’t worry Dan, there will always be people around to do the dirty work to protect you and your family. That way you can feel good about yourself and how assimilated you are!
Comment by NC Cop @ 7/6/2008 - 11:57 am
Brilliant response by Satullo, by the way.
“Conservatives are evil, called me names, and can’t spell.”
Wow, that was one fantastic piece of work.
You related to him, Dan?
Comment by NC Cop @ 7/6/2008 - 12:00 pm
There is nothing to say to a Dan.
He’ll have his laundry list.
1) 3 people have been water boarded, yet he acts like this country is SOOOOO horrible for doing so when these people are EVIL people that have information that we need to protect millions of Americans
2) Sure 2/3rd of Americans think water boarding is ‘torture’ now. Newscasters have subjected themselves to it to see how bad it is - were they permanently disfigured or damaged? No! As long as the drum beat by stupid journalists keeps up maybe 3/4ths of Americans will think water boarding is ‘torture’. It’s an OPINION. It doesn’t make it truth. You can harshly judge this country for water boarding 3 people who are evil based on a journalists drum beat or….. get some PERSPECTIVE.
3) Beheadings are permanent. Water boarding is what it is.
4) Seems the Gitmo detainee thing is more OPINION. Yes there was a recent Supreme Court ruling in your favor but for YEARS that wasn’t the case. There is past precedence in WW2 yet you act like this country has CHANGED dramatically for the worst or something.
THis country is about as good as it can get.
Start talking that way and you won’t be argued against you’ll be hearing us pat you on the back.
These are tough times to be living in and we will never be perfect but we’ll be one of the best nations on earth by and far and that is my perspective.
THANK YOU NC for holding down the fort with this America hater!
Comment by Baklava @ 7/6/2008 - 2:10 pm
Without having heard Rush’s show last week, I’m confident Satullo is making things up in his response:
I’ve never, ever heard Rush urge his listeners to contact anyone. Never gives out a phone number, or an Email address, or web site. Satullo’s fantasizing here.
Not that that would surprise anyone who pays attention to the nonsense the left spits out today.
Now, as for Delusional Dan…
I maintain we are doing good things. We are confronting the most irrational, implacable, and inflexible force of evil on earth today, and there’s every indication we’re succeeding. And don’t dare try to tell me we’re no different because of the methods. Tell that to Nick Berg or Daniel Pearl. The methods our forces use are NOT torture. Show me one terrorist who came out of Gitmo, or Abu Ghraib, with permanent damage to life or limb. You can’t.
Dan, I live in the Philadelphia area. I see Satullo’s screeds in the Inky on a regular basis. The description of him is entirely accurate. Now, maybe from the perspective of Code Pink or MoveOn.org or the Kossacks, where anyone one step to the right of Castro is a “moderate”, that characterization is “a bit absurd”. But not for those of us who aren’t wearing such blinders. And his motivation is that of a partisan hack. Period. Try acquainting yourself with the body of his work before you try to channel his thoughts.
And your source is…what? Democratic Underground or some other anti-American mouthpiece? No link or any documentation, I see. Care to back up this charge? And that last insinuation is just a groundless slur. The fact is, we have records on what happens to every one of the terrorists we apprehend. Your ominous hint that maybe they just disappeared (probably on the direct orders of Chimpy McHitlerburton) places you squarely in John Murtha/Dick Durbin territory. No, I’ll tell you what happens to terrorists after they’re caught. They get three meals a day, a brand new Koran, and plenty of exercise time. Which you seem to define as “torture”.
The torture part we’ve covered ad nauseum. The ones who screech about torture most loudly are the ones who want political power here, even at the expense of the wrong side winning the WOT.
Imprisoning peope without charge or trial - did you miss the part where this is a WAR??? And according to all civilized rules of war, those who do not wear a uniform and hide behind civilians can be executed on the spot when they are caught. We’re being magnanimous by treating them like legitimate combatants.
Shipping prisoners to Syria - you might have missed this, but Syria happens to be sympathetic to the other side. On the other side from where the US stands in the WOT, I mean. I’m not going to comment on whether Syria and Dan are on the same side…
Comment by Great White Rat @ 7/6/2008 - 3:16 pm
Christ! - it’s a pathetic thing to say, but I’m too tired - and have too many real world things to do - to spend time in fruitless debate over torture with apologists for our nation’s shameful adoption of it. Again, what I piped up to point out - before I forgot how pointless that is, and got sucked in - is labeling Satullo (or me, who’s no relation, except like GWR being a (former) regular inky reader) an American-hater for such views. That’s nonsense. I love my country - its ideals and promise, even if they’re often so imperfectly realized - and that’s why this betrayal of our principles is so viscerally offensive to me, far more than the average reaction upon seeing some other, random free-world country sliding into decay.
Comment by Dan S. @ 7/6/2008 - 8:44 pm
Stop torturing me DAN! I’ll talk!! I’ll talk!!! and if that don’t break ya maybe this will!
Comment by forest hunter @ 7/7/2008 - 7:01 am
Sigh - even less time, but, anyway, a few points:
re: political labels and affiliations:
I have no objection to terms like “far left”; indeed I have friends who are on the far left, at least by American standards. My objection is how it’s being misapplied, any why. In this case, Satullo’s always come across as a rather dull moderate-ish liberal, at best (although being neither a longtime Philadelphian nor a current Inky reader, I can’t swear I’m not missing something). Even his recognition that a) waterboarding is a form of torture and b) not an acceptable thing for America to do, even in the current circumstances, places him squarely in line with the majority of Americans. But I don’t see this as simple confusion or unfamiliarity. I tend to view it as (a very incidental) part of a consistent & fairly deliberate (or brilliantly intuitive) linguistic strategy, not by commenters here but by movement-conservative shapers of opinion. It’s like trying to label Arlen Specter or Christie Todd Whitman as radical far-righties: it’s an attempt to shut down most of an entire wing of political belief, possibility, and debate, paint entirely mainstream views as beyond-the-pale extremism, and forcibly (and falsely) drag the center towards the fringes.
However, as mentioned, I could be missing something here, so GWR or anyone else, if you want to explain how Satullo qualifies as a far-lefty . . .? (as opposed, let me remind you, to a mainstream liberal).
Re: terrorist numbers recruitment tactics - “LOL!! Now who’s living in the fantasy world?! That’s ok, Dan, keep living with your head in the sand. If you pretend the threat doesn’t exist than it must not. I believe that was the Clinton motto! . . . Goodness, I wasn’t aware the Islamic terrorists posted the recruitment numbers for everyone to see. Do you have a link, please?”
You seem preoccupied with Bill Clinton. Anyway, obviously I don’t have reliable recruitment numbers (though thanks to the internet, terrorist recruitment and chatter have become bizarrely public), but there are two points here:
I certainly don’t want to downplay the genuine risk - I’m from New York, after all - but let’s be realistic. I mean, how many (anti-American) terrorists do you imagine there are? I’m not trying to suggest there’s only a literal handful, but c’mon - we’re talking a very small % of the population. Of course, the whole point is that thanks to modern tech even a literal handful can kill a lot of people, but it’s not like we’re about to be swamped by millions of fanatical terrorists.
And as for the idea of (bad) reactions to terrorism helping to radicalize the potentially pro-terrorist population - you mean that’s new to you? seriously?
“ As long as the drum beat by stupid journalists keeps up maybe 3/4ths of Americans will think water boarding is ‘torture’.”
Oh please. Stupid journalists’ve been bending over backwards to not describe waterboarding as torture.
“ Yes there was a recent Supreme Court ruling in your favor ”
Thanks for admitting that.
“ There is past precedence in WW2”
We made some mistakes there, y’know, what with internments and such. But you might want to look up the case of a certain Yukio Asano. We were pretty clear on torture being torture there.
“THis country is about as good as it can get.”
Well, that’s a melancholy thought. I prefer to think there’s a whole lot of better we can become.
“ you might have missed this, but Syria happens to be sympathetic to the other side. ”
What’s interesting here is that there’s no indication that you’re familiar with the very well-known case I’m referring to. Is that true?
“And according to all civilized rules of war”
You see to have a different understanding of the Geneva Conventions.
- On the other hand
- I can’t find any command to sic Satullo in Rush’s posted transcript. I seem to remember folks complaining -plausibly - that it’s not always the most dependable, but in the absence of any further evidence . . . .
Comment by Dan S. @ 7/7/2008 - 7:38 am
Final word, Dan: the fact that you consider some interorgation techniques torture doesn’t make them so. This is war, and we’ve been more lenient to terrorists who deserve no quarter than most nations would be to actual enemy combatants. I do not find your teary-eyed concern for the throat-cutters touching at all.
As for America “sliding into decay”, I’d suggest you look at your compadres on the left, who have preached and practiced the moral relativism that you think you’re condemning. And then check the mirror, and ask yourself if you’re not really part of the problem.
Comment by Great White Rat @ 7/7/2008 - 7:47 am
No more than you and your kind are preoccupied with Pres. Bush.
I’m shocked……really.
Yes, Dan, but we are talking about BILLIONS of Muslims. How much is a small percentage of a billion? Do the math. Regardless of whether you believe there are “alot” of terrorists, the argument doesn’t change. If putting someone in a cold room and blasting rock music in their ears helps saving thousands of lives, it’s worth it. And yes, that’s my opinion.
Seriously? I had not heard of our harsh interrogation techniques “radicalizing” anyone. It seems you want to drift into a conversation about Iraq/Afghanistan? Judging by the way your “torture” arguments are going, I don’t blame you.
LOL!! That’s the best one yet! Yes, the media has truly been sympathetic to the Bush administration. What color is the sky in your world, Dan? However, interesting that this comes up right after the “radicalizing” argument, because if you want to see who is the best agent for radicalizing terrorists look no further than our wonderful, “unbiased”, watchdog media. Whether they are printing false stories of Quran abuse at Cuba or plastering negative stories as often as they can, they are the terrorists best friends.
Yes, both liberal and terrorist alike celebrated that ruling.
What case is that?
Comment by NC Cop @ 7/7/2008 - 11:34 am
We most certainly agree on that. Stomping out the flaming socialists, apologists, communists, traitors, saboteurs, appeasers, whiners, greenies, weenies and hippies, would go a long way toward that end but, then the Republicans would have no oppositional party.
Comment by forest hunter @ 7/7/2008 - 6:04 pm
“Final word, Dan”
Perhaps we should let someone else have the final word:
“Second, one form of torture was experienced by a considerable number of Air Force prisoners of war during efforts to coerce false confessions from them. The prisoners were required to stand, or sit, at attention for exceedingly long periods of time-in one extreme case, day and night for a week at a time with only brief respites. In a few cases, the standing was aggravated by extreme cold. This form of torture had several distinct advantages for extorting confessions.
In the simple torture situation-the “bamboo splinters” technique of popular imagination-the contest is clearly one between the individual and his tormentor. Can he endure pain 1)beyond the point to ‘which the interrogator will go in inflicting pain? The answer for the interrogator is all too frequently yes.
Where the individual is told to stand at attention for long periods, an intervening factor is introduced. The immediate source of pain is not the interrogator but the victim himself. . . . The motivational strength of the individual is likely to exhaust itself in this internal encounter. . . .. Most frequently, although not invariably, the extent to which the interrogators in North Korea and China were willing or permitted to inflict physical punishment was very limited. Generally, it appears to have been limited to cuffs, slaps and kicks, and sometimes nmerely to threats and insults. Returnees who underwent long periods of standing and sitting, however, report no other experience could be more excruciating.
For the interrogator, forced standing has still further advantages. It is consistent with formal adherence to mythical principles of legality and humaneness important to the Communists. . . . Adherence to these mythical principles also protects the interrogator from potential punishment at some future time for mistreating prisoners. The Communists, furthermore, can gain a considerable propaganda advantage when victims who are released truthfully state that no one ever laid a hand on them.
Biderman, A. D. (1957). Communist attempts to elicit false confessions from Air Force prisoners of war. Bulletin of the New York Academy of Medicine, 33(9), 616-624.
“ I do not find your teary-eyed concern for the throat-cutters touching at all.”
Yes, this is a frequent misunderstanding, that opposition to torture and the undermining of basic civil liberties - an opposition that unites lefties, liberals, libertarians, and principled conservatives - is actually motivated by an moronically bleeding-heartish “teary-eyed concern for the throat-cutters” - what a weak, feeble, sickening attitude, right? $@%in’ sissies! (Granted, there are some followers of a certain long-ago Judean preacher fellow - among others - who might disagree, but . . . )
This easily slips into other fantasies - that those voicing such opposition aren’t just pathologically soft-hearted, but actual terrorist-lovers - supporters, allies, even their “best friends” - indeed, they probably hang out with ‘em “celebrat[ing]” Supreme Court decisions doubtlessly authored by yet more terrorist-loving traitors. Another such argument is that it’s instead (or additionally?) motivated merely by craven politicking - “ The ones who screech about torture most loudly are the ones who want political power here, even at the expense of the wrong side winning the WOT,” where supposed treason isn’t even motivated by misguided ideals, but base opportunism. (People often do attribute these sorts of schemingly deceitful motives to despised outgroups, while their own group is acting in pure good faith, selflessly motivated by high &serious concerns and careful consideration.)
Now, that’s BS, of course. I could try to explain why so many Americans oppose these things - torture and the broader undermining of civil liberties - but I want to try something different. (Plus, I do tend to go on and on in a way that arguably counts as torture under several international agreements . . . ). So: pretend for a moment that we’re not hideous American-hating monsters or pathetic fools or cartoon villains or dangerous subhumans, but your fellow citizens - decidedly imperfect, sometimes mistaken, but generally well-meaning, decent people acting in good faith. I want you - if anyone’s still reading, that is - to try to answer: Why might we oppose torture & the broader undermining of basic civil liberties? What reasons and explanations might we give? I’m not asking you to recognize torture as torture, etc., here - only, for the purposes of argument, that we see it as such.
“’d suggest you look at your compadres on the left, who have preached and practiced the moral relativism”
Yes, that’s a rather dreadful irony, that liberals - along with others, as mentioned - have ended up struggling against this recent wave of right wing moral relativism, permissiveness, and destruction of long-standing values. At least such compadres - rightly or wrongly - were aiming for things like greater freedom, happiness, sex, mercy, etc. In contrast, the folks who ape them nowadays to so to justify torturing both prisoners and the Constitution.
“No more than you and your kind are preoccupied with Pres. Bush.”
Who is, of course, the current President, as opposed to a guy whom middle school kids only know as an ex-President and highschoolers as a face on tv from when they were little.
“if you want to see who is the best agent for radicalizing terrorists look no further than our wonderful, “unbiased”, watchdog media.”
Besides the ‘liberal media’ fantasy, there’s a deeper issue. It’s hard to get to, because we inhabit such drastically different ideospheres - so at least some folks on the right seem to be in a world where we’re always winning without the slightest problem (yet the enemy is always horribly powerful and looming in our doorstep), where we’re always right in everything we do, without even mistakes, and where politicians & gov’t can be trusted utterly (unless they’re Democrats). But trying to squeeze past that, the great principle we value here is that truth is more important than convenient stories and useful propaganda. Although, yes, you seem to see the media’s occasional faltering attempts to live up to this value as merely more American-hating, terrorist-loving lies. Ah well.
- ‘America: At least we don’t behead people’ is not the motto I want my kids learning.
“Yes, Dan, that’s a great idea. Let’s treat it like a law enforcement problem, that’s the ticket.”
Never understood this argument. It seems pretty obvious that a lot of counter-terrorist work is basically a law enforcement problem, like dealing with the mob or drug cartels. A lot of the rest involves winning hearts and minds (hate that term). Certainly military force - from limited to extensive - might be required, but that’s just one aspect.
“The fact is, we have records on what happens to every one of the terrorists we apprehend. Your ominous hint that maybe they just disappeared . . .places you squarely in John Murtha/Dick Durbin territory.
Eww, John Murtha. Don’t you just hate former Eagle Scouts/Vietnam vets/two-time Purple Heart recipients? (anti-abortion & gun control too). I bet he parties with bin Laden.
But more seriously - that’s nonsense. I mean, ok, I’m sure somewhere, someone has (or had) records on many of the terrorists we’ve apprehended - Abu Ghraib, from what I’ve read, was simply so chaotic that I’m honestly uncertain how good their record-keeping was, completely apart from any more sinister goals. Obviously that doesn’t matter unless they’re reasonably at least quasi-public. The reality is that people have been disappeared -see for example “black sites”, “extraordinary rendition”, “ghost detainees”, etc, (wikipedia’s a start). Many of these people surely are Not Our Friends. Others - well . . .
I don’t want my kids having to add ’secret prisons and ghost detainees” to those lines about purple mountain majesties/ above the fruited plain. It throws the rhythm off.
“Yes, Dan, but we are talking about BILLIONS of Muslims.”
How many Muslims are there in the world?
More relevantly, it’s kinda clear that the number of anti-American terrorists is actually pretty small, and a fair number appear to be somewhat incompetent or small-timish. This isn’t to dismiss the very real - and absolute worst-case scenario, indescribably nightmarish -risk, or the fact that - if well-organized and -equipped - you don’t need many at all to cause significant (if limited) death and damage. But honestly, it’s not like there are hordes of terrorists pouring over the walls. I can understand, though, why trying to live with the prospect would be so terrifyingly unmanning - after all, it’s not like we spent most of the last couple of decades locked in simmering combat with a implacable, ruthless, highly aggressive and utterly inimical totalitarian superpower with countless nuclear missiles pointed right at us.
“We most certainly agree on that. ”
Well, sort of. I have to admit that my hopes for that kind of future don’t involve “stomping” every group I dislike or disagree with, but YMMV . . .
“What case is that?” [involving extraordinary rendition to Syria]
Maher Arar.
Of course, the inevitable result of these sorts of operations is to add onto all such statements the addendum: “. . . that we know of.”
Comment by Dan S. @ 7/8/2008 - 12:40 am
“How do you get information out of an individual who has sworn to God to kill as many people as possible and never surrender? Perhaps, a hot cup of coffee and saying pleeeeeeeeeease? ”
Oddly enough, perhaps. For example, a number of WWII veterans who interrogated Nazis have insisted that “We got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or Ping-Pong than they do today, with their torture“, while other professionals have made similar arguments.
Now, I really dislike arguing against torture on pragmatic grounds - it’s a bit like dutifully explaining that rape or baby-eating is wrong because it’s inefficient. Nevertheless, I’d bet - no, in fact, I know - that everyone here at least implicitly knows that torture is deeply unreliable.
It’s also interesting to consider the essential insincerity of the more or less official response re: torture - that is, we don’t torture! but we’re completely justified! Now, one might argue simply that something isn’t torture - for example, if the specific accusation was ‘you gave them fresh sweet corn with butter!’, unless that’s some sort of euphemism, one might respond yes or no, but definitely so?. (The infamous frat hazing excuse is of this type - it may make decent people want to vomit, but it’s internally coherent. Wrong, but coherent. Likewise, one might admit to torture, but insist that it was necessary - ‘yes, we applied wires to his genitals and turned the current on, but it was the only way to save the human race from total extermination at the hands of the Daleks!’ Again, in our case, wrong, but coherent. But the common insistence that ‘it;d not torture, but we’re totally justified - uh-uh.
Comment by Dan S. @ 7/8/2008 - 7:40 am
My final word ……….
Dopeler effect, commonly referred to as DanS disease: The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter, when they come at you rapidly.
You may actually believe all this ethereal glibido you spout however, all talk and no action at the end of the day does not get it done Dan. It never has and never will.
England is looking for more easy to deceive fools, check it out. You might find your slice of cake yet.
Hell, they might even believe you’re serious.
Comment by forest hunter @ 7/8/2008 - 9:33 am
Comparing the Islamic fanatics to Nazis?? Are you kidding me? They are two completely different enemies. Using WW II techniques against these people would be absolutely fruitless. Yeah, let’s play ping pong with them.
On the other hand, harsh interrogation techniques HAVE worked.
Why Extreme Interrogation Works
That information helped uncover several plots that SAVED LIVES!!!
Comment by NC Cop @ 7/8/2008 - 10:27 am
Yes, Dan, it is a fantasy. I completely made the whole thing up.
Media Bias Basics
Gosh, Dan, that would be MOST Americans, millions of them, so it must be true, huh? That’s ok, denial is a symptom, it’s not your fault.
Don’t know where that came from. I don’t recall anyone here saying the we never make mistakes.
Except in the case of 9/11. But what the heck, it was only 3,000 people, right Dan. All it takes is one or two plots to succeed to kill thousands. The reason it succeeded was because the FBI was shackled with the red tape and bureaucracy of federal law enforcement.
How Many Muslims Are There?
Somewhere between 1.2 and 1.8 billion. Any other information you need?
Interesting article about Arar, though. The only thing I don’t understand is that if we sent him to Syria specifically to be tortured, what information to we gain from it? It was always my understanding that the point of torture was to get information out of someone. Did that happen? It appears not.
There is also one Canadian who doesn’t seem to jump on the “America is evil” bandwagon.
Maher Arar: Why the US won’t (and shouldn’t) let go
It details some of the information against Arar that, strangely enough, most of the “I hate Bush” websites have mysteriously left out.
Comment by NC Cop @ 7/8/2008 - 11:11 am
I almost forgot to address this one. Yes, the same Murtha who accused our troops of “cold blooded” murder by jumping on the bandwagon when the media (that fair and unbiased media that Dan loves so much) broke the “story”.
Now all but one of the Marines has had all the charges dropped, but has Murtha had the courage and fortitude to step up and apologize? Of course not,much like Dan, he ignores it and moves on to another point. By all means, the democrats can have “heroes” like Murtha, he fits in well with them.
Comment by NC Cop @ 7/8/2008 - 4:10 pm
Dan, the first rule of holes is that when you’re in one, you stop digging.
NC Cop, mind if I take another inning here?
OK, now you’ve really entered the realm of non compos mentis (at least you have a legal defense now for your position). Even the left admits that upwards of 80% of the reporters and talking heads of the national news media are on their side. The voting patterns and registration numbers back that up. For you to deny it shows very little inclination to exist in the real world.
Well, it oughta be easy to solve it then, shouldn’t it? You’re from New York…have you petitioned the governor to send a NY State Trooper over to Waziristan with an arrest warrant and ask bin Laden to come along peacefully? No? Why not? I mean, you don’t need the Army or Marines if it’s just a law enforcement problem.
Wikipedia is hardly authentic. Especially on topics where committed idealogues (of both sides) can edit and insert false entries at a whim.
NC Cop’s already debunked your drivel on this point, but it’s worth noting that given a reference you can’t refute, your tactic is to change the subject. Disingenuous, but eminently predictable.
Hmmm….can’t see where I ever mentioned him, but since you decided to broach the subject, let’s do discuss it. Particularly, in light of this comment:
First of all, do you know what civil rights and liberties are? They are rights that belong to the citizens of a country. They do NOT belong to captured foreign national terrorists, especially those who wage war in direct violation of internationally accepted conventions. You know, the very people you are most concerned about.
So let’s now talk about the Clinton administration. I’d say firebombing and killing women and children in a compound - American citizens all - is a lot more serious than forcing a captured Jihadi to listen to Christina Aguilera music. In fact, it’s a real violation of “civil liberties”.
So is sending an armed squad into the home of an America citizen to kidnap a boy for the purpose of winning the favor of an America-hating dictator (Note: Dan, that’s your cue to bleat about how we’re unfair to label Fidel as an “America hater”).
Fortunately for Dan, the firebomb victims aren’t around to complain to a sympathetic leftist reporter. Neither was the boy sent back into slavery. So those excesses are all well and good. I’ll bet Dan didn’t write lengthy indignant letters anywhere objecting to “undermining of civil liberties”. If you did, I’d love to see it.
But to bring this all back to the original point: you know who did not write a column about how such excesses made him ashamed of being an American? One Chris Satullo, that’s who. I checked the archives. While harsh interrogation of captured terrorists troubles him and the likes of Dan, real excesses aimed at our own citizens during Clinton’s tenure weren’t worthy of one peep. No breast-beating about how we have sinned. No indictment of the entire nation. No appeals to stop singing patriotic songs and flaggelate ourselves in shame instead. No, to him, those acts were just business as usual…because they were done in the name of good old left-wing political pre-eminence.
And for the record, no, I did not feel complicit when Clinton was engaging in such actions. I still saluted the flag and flew it. ST makes that valid point succinctly:
And there, in one sentence, is a very basic difference between conservatives and leftists. For us, the country comes first. If something is good for the country but bad for a conservative candidate, we don’t mind. It’s why you didn’t see any equivalent of Code Pink during the Clinton invasion of Kosovo. No conservative equivalent of a John Murtha or Dick Durbin looking for ways to slander the troops for political gain. No conservative equivalent of Cindy Sheehan setting up tents in Little Rock. It’s why during the Johnson and Carter administrations you didn’t have conservative senators huddling with the Soviets and suggesting ways they might prevail over American foreign policy - as we now know Ted Kennedy did during the Reagan years. What matters to us is that when America is engaged in a life-or-death conflict, hot or cold, we always want America to win, no matter what party gets the credit.
The left has this 180 degrees opposite. Political power comes first, and if it means America is the worse off for it, well, that’s acceptable. Everything is viewed through the lens of what helps them gain more power. If America loses the WOT but the left gets control of the government, that’s reason to celebrate. Undermine the war effort? Hell, yes…until we get the White House back. It’s why prominent Democrats like Congressman Clyburn ruminated earlier this year about how he was bothered by good news from Iraq - because it hurt Democrat electoral chances.
There’s really nothing more to be said to the Dans of this world…they live in a strange little universe where Jihadis are a figment of our imagination, the president lives in the Fuhrerbunker, and everything would be just fine if we adopted the economic policies that made East Germany great and the political system that’s made Cuba a paradise.
You want to know why we find the likes of Satullo far off to the left? Judge by what they’re willing to accept if done by leftists, as opposed to what elicits crocodile tears when done by anyone else.
Put down the shovel, Dan. Stop digging. But thanks for playing.
Comment by Great White Rat @ 7/8/2008 - 8:02 pm
Dan, when your party of malcontents insist that you go to the doctor to have a mole removed and replace it with a wart, what will you copy and paste over the affliction?
Comment by forest hunter @ 7/9/2008 - 1:07 am
Well, GWR, that’s a quite impassioned comment. I hope you don’t mind if I address some of the earlier ones first, though . . . but I will try to get to it tonight or tomorrow.
“Dopeler effect, commonly referred to as DanS disease: The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter, when they come at you rapidly.”
Gratuitous and dully vacant personal insult aside (what next, ‘your momma’?), I rather like that (and so then they’d be at normal stupid level as they pass you, and appear even extra stupid as they keep going . . .) Interestingly, the Doppler effect also works with electromagnetic radiation (light, for example) as well as sound waves. So stars and such that are receding far away into the distance - buh-bye! - appear shifted toward the red end of the spectrum, while ones growing ever closer look bluer.
Hmm.. .
Ok, done amusing myself. And of course, this is disgustingly oversimplified and I don’t understand most of it. Cool, though.
Anyway, careful observation has convinced me that stupidity is part of the fundamental make-up of matter at the atomic level. Sure, everybody knows about protons and neutrons and electrons - but what they’ve been missing is that other atomic particle . . . the moron.
“England is looking for more easy to deceive fools, check it out.”
Ooh - Mrs. S. would love to see London - do you have any more information on this exciting opportunity? I mean, I figure you’d know . . (I wonder if the folks who put together the ARPANET ever imagined their creation developing into an enormous entity largely used to trade playground insults, cat pictures, & etc. . . .?)
“Comparing the Islamic fanatics to Nazis?? Are you kidding me? They are two completely different enemies”
Yep. I mean after all, Germany’s in Europe, not the Middle East! Silly me! And it’s Islamofascists, not Islamonazis! And everybody knows that Nazi generals had a reputation for being laid-back, easy-going, open-minded fellows . . .
More seriously, though, it’s not an utterly absurd argument - the German generals and their interrogators did have more shared culture and history, for example. But it’s just that - an interesting argument, which would need to be supported, and doesn’t have any more of a priori claim to being correct than its opposite. Indeed, it’s perfectly reasonable to think that - while cultural factors are important - there are also shared basics of human psychology.
“On the other hand, harsh interrogation techniques [that is, torture] HAVE worked.”
Indeed. They worked in the early -1690s Salem, Mass., when they helped root out many Wiccanist terrorists (or ‘witches’) who were meeting in terrorists cells (’covens’) and obtaining WMDS - that is, weapons of magical destruction. They had been working in similar trials across much of Europe for several centuries. Indeed, prior to the witchcraze really getting started, they worked to uncover a plot by Jews and lepers to attack France with chemical WMDs (ie, poison the wells and rivers) at the behalf of the Muslim king of Granada. (Rather disturbingly, if you poke around online, you’ll find neonazis, etc. who seem to take this at least partly seriously. I keep touching on the sort of gaping, well, gap between our views, but it could, after all, be a lot bigger.)
Now, I should clarify here, given that some folks seem to believe I think the terrorists who killed ~3000 people in my hometown are imaginary. I’m certainly not saying that. Nor -obviously - are details elicited by torture always wrong. But torture is first and foremost not reliable. If you look at the long 1957 quote (and link) in one of my earlier comments, you’ll notice that one of the main aims that the Communists were using these methods (which we’ve now adopted) for was the production of false confessions. - Indeed, I tend to think that human nature means that the use of torture inevitably moves away from intelligence-gathering into other purposes - but that’s another matter.
“That information helped uncover several plots that SAVED LIVES!!!”
That’s actually not at all clear - it would help if the recordings of those interrogations hadn’t been destroyed, but . . . - and there have been arguments over Abu Zubaydah’s importance and sanity. In some cases it at least seems like we already had information that was supposedly uniquely supplied by AZ, etc . . . According to a Dec. ‘07 Washington Post article featuring John Kiriakou - a former CIA agent who was involved in capturing and interrogating Abu Zubaydah,
“Kiriakou said he now has mixed feelings about the use of waterboarding. He said that he thinks the technique provided a crucial break to the CIA and probably helped prevent attacks, but that he is now convinced that waterboarding is torture, and “Americans are better than that.”
“Maybe that’s inconsistent, but that’s how I feel,” he said. “It was an ugly little episode that was perhaps necessary at that time. But we’