That’s probably because they don’t have a plan

New poll out: Most people doubt Dems have plan for Iraq.

But they elected them into a majority in Congress.

*scratches head in confusion*

Thoughts on voting for “change” and Democratic over-the-top rhetoric

47 Responses to "That’s probably because they don’t have a plan"

Radish says:

November 14, 2006 at 5:12 pm

I thought the plan was to declare defeat and go home.
Big Bang Hunter says:

November 14, 2006 at 6:25 pm

Democratic plan: QUIT

– Bang
CavalierX says:

November 14, 2006 at 9:14 pm

Democrats are so great, they have four plans to deal with Iraq!
“Cut and run” (immediate withdrawal), “cut and walk” (phased withdrawal), “split and quit” (divide the country, declare victory and leave) and “hide and bide” (retreat to secure bases and let Sunni, Shi’a, Kurds, Ba’athists and al-Qaeda fight it out)! Is there anything missing? Oh, yeah: winning.
I. M. Neiman says:

November 14, 2006 at 9:23 pm

CavalierX: Very good!

I’ll use it and give you proper attribution once or twice, then I’ll not credit anyone a few times and a few days later I’ll forget where I read it first and claim full credit, so I thought I better say thanks now!
Great White Rat says:

November 14, 2006 at 10:49 pm

I love this line from the linked article:

“Everyone agrees that we’re going to have to begin redeployment,” Rep. Ike Skelton, D-Mo., said of the Democratic position.

“Everyone” here meaning the entire range of the political spectrum from the garden variety liberal all the way to the extreme nutroot left.

Oh yes, and al Qaeda is also thinking of ‘redeployment’. As soon as our troops leave, AQ will pull out of Iraq – and redeploy to the U.S. Count on it.
Big Bang Hunter says:

November 14, 2006 at 11:45 pm

– Actually GWR, that will be phase two. First they’ll really re-establish themselves in Iraq, much deeper than before, utilize the ensueing bloodbath in our absense, and then turn to other targets as they work their way to America. The world is doing 1938 all over again, just as Natenyahoo said the other day. the Wahhabists looked at WWII, and decided rightly, that America was the only country capable of stopping Hitler. The same is pretty much true today, Although both Russia, and China would hold them off for a long time. They know if they can cow the US, the rest of the Euro block and West will fold. It’s idiocy, but then if Despots had any sanity they wouldn’t try us in the first place. They won’t win in the end. The problem is that pacifism always costs a great many lives until people realize you have to fight back, and eliminate the threats. That’s how the holocaust happened, exactly the same situation, with appeasers like the Far Left, playing on peoples fears, because they don’t want to fight. Apparently its going to take an American city going up in atomic dust before people understand the threat. We seem doomed to repeat the same mistakes over and over. Takes a lot to make people stand up and fight back. Europe has already essentially surrendered, plastering it over with “multiculturalism” news-speak.

– Bang
Great White Rat says:

November 14, 2006 at 11:55 pm

Bang,

That’s true. They’ll take some time to consolidate their gains in the Middle East, and maybe toy with a few cowardly European countries first, but make no mistake – their ultimate target is the U.S. We agree on that.
Great White Rat says:

November 14, 2006 at 11:56 pm

Actually, it appears that Chris Muir has an inside look at what the Democrats’ Iraq plan looks like…
leaf says:

November 15, 2006 at 3:17 pm

I wonder why the poll didn’t ask people if the Republicans have a plan for Iraq. I did a Google News search for “republican plan for iraq” and I got a bunch of stuff about how the Dems have no plan. Darn that liberal MSM! The Dems got us into this Iraq mess, they need to figure out a way to fix it!
Baklava says:

November 15, 2006 at 3:25 pm

leaf, Probably because Republicans have a well stated plan dispite John Kerry and you trying to assert “no plan”. It is in writing. It’s been introduced, updated and posted on the white house website. (not that white house website leaf, the other one

leaf wrote, “I did a Google News search for “republican plan for iraq” and I got a bunch of stuff about how the Dems have no plan.”

Your lack of knowledge about how to find said plan does not mean that it doesn’t exist. It means you don’t know how to find it. Thanks for sharing with us your lack of knowledge. Really. We enjoy it.
leaf says:

November 15, 2006 at 3:51 pm

I found a plan on whitehouse.gov from November 2005. I guess the plan is working so well they haven’t had to make any changes since then. Here is a snippet from the plan:

Victory in Iraq is Defined in Stages
â€¢ Short term, Iraq is making steady progress in fighting terrorists, meeting political milestones, building democratic institutions, and standing up security forces.

â€¢ Medium term, Iraq is in the lead defeating terrorists and providing its own security, with a fully constitutional government in place, and on its way to achieving its economic potential.

â€¢ Longer term, Iraq is peaceful, united, stable, and secure, well integrated into the international community, and a full partner in the global war on terrorism.

In my estimation, we are still working on the short term goals. This is after almost 4 years in a conflict that Rummy said he “doubted would last six months.”

George Bush said just before the elections that he never said “stay the course,” so I guess my new question is what is the new Republican plan for Iraq? You know, the one where we make progress?
Baklava says:

November 15, 2006 at 6:00 pm

Leaf, I’m glad you did due diligence this time. It isn’t typical for a liberal to do so. (just being funny)

But the effect is that you moved from your originial accusation of “no plan”.

As for your new accusations…. Iraq is what it is. Does that mean you keep harping on what Rummy had said about 6 months or whatever? No. Acceptance of what is is important in all facets of life because you need to deal with current reality. Currently, retired generals and many experts recommned NOT pulling out as that would lead to an escalated situation and possible humanitarian crisis. But Rummy said, but rummy said… (just teasing again).

Your last paragraph is a complete fabrication of what George Bush said and a complete misunderstanding (being obtuse) about what the military has been doing. The enemy changes and our military changes. We have changed tactics (but leaf acts like our military is unintelligent and dumb and stupid) and our military continues to change tactics as it learns new ways to respond to the enemy to defeat them. Staying the course was a phrase that was used not for tactics but for staying until the job is done. To leave before the job is done is the worst option. To ACT like staying the course meant our military doesn’t learn and adapt and change tactics is INSULTING to our men and women in uniform and the officers that have been free to execute their job.

There are all sorts of milbolgs out there that have described in detail (TO THEIR PERIL I MIGHT ADD) some of the changes they have gone through to be smarter than the enemy and make progress.

We do not control the enemy and haven’t in any war. That is why people are killed in wars. We had more of our men killed in Iwo Jima alone than this entire Iraq war yet you get so negative and act like our military is dumb and has no strategy. I wonder where the apology is for your first accusation that you had to back out on. I wonder when John Kerry will apologize for aiding and abetting the enemy with his “no plan” rhetoric. I wonder when you’ll change your tactics and join us in trying to defeat the enemy. It’d be great publicity for the Democrat Congress and the White House but you should put politics aside and root for America!!!
NC Cop says:

November 15, 2006 at 9:49 pm

Well, leaf, perhaps you can go over there and help out, since you are so concerned. Haven’t we had this conversation before?

In almost four years they have had 3 successful elections in which millions of Iraqi risked their lives just to vote. Thousands of military and police have been trained. It’s up to the military commanders ON THE GROUND IN IRAQ to decide when each unit is able to stand up on their own. A government has been set up, and while it has been struggling, it still functions.

Perhaps while you are searching the internet you can find the “exit plan” that the U.S. has had on ANY other major war we have fought. The exit plan is when victory is achieved, anything else is a complete failure.
NC Cop says:

November 15, 2006 at 9:52 pm

Although I have to give leaf credit in trying to change the subject. Perhaps if you re-read the post you will see it was discussing the dems plans for victory in Iraq.

Could you tell us what it is, please?
Baklava says:

November 15, 2006 at 10:07 pm

At least he researched for once and found that his false allegation of Bush having no plan was a flat out LIE.
leaf says:

November 15, 2006 at 11:50 pm

Actually NC cop, I don’t believe I was off topic. The post was about a poll asking Americans if they thought the Dems had a plan for Iraq. I wondered why they didn’t also ask people if they theght the Reps had a plan for Iraq. I don’t think the Dems have a plan for victory. They have several plans for making the best out of an impossible situation. CavalierX outlined these in an earlier comment, complete with derisive nicknames. I don’t see any way we can secure Iraq with current troop levels and I don’t see where we are going to get enough troops to do the job right without a draft, something which Bush has promised not to do.

Elections are great, but if people don’t have security, they are not really free. There is a lot of evidence to to suggest that American presence in Iraq is aggravating the violence and also helping the terrorists. Polls show that 71% of Iraqis want us out within a year. The pollsters drew the conclusion that the people felt things were so bad now that they couldn’t possibly get worse if we left. How many units are ready now? How many were ready a year ago? Show me the actual progress.

No, I’m not going to go fight Bush’s war for him. I would never serve such a liar.

Baklava, thanks for being civil. I don’t intend to belittle the troops. I think they are doing the best they can with what they have, but they are undermanned and undersupplied. This administration thinks it’s more important to give no-bid contracts to private contractors than to take care of our troops.

John Kerry served honorably and was smeared by Karl Rove’s phony Swift Boat Vets. I think he has a lot more respect for the troops than the republican leadership, most of whom didn’t serve. I know Republicans like to pretend they don’t know that he was making a joke about Bush getting stuck in Iraq but that makes them look just as dumb as Bush.
Baklava says:

November 16, 2006 at 12:15 am

Not a problem leaf. I know where you come from. I once was a liberal (back in 1991).

I know you don’t intend to belittle our troops but the end result of the rhetoric does have a negative consequence (my opinion). It’d go a long way towards understanding our viewpoint if you open your heart to the possibility of how hurtful Democrats/liberals words have been on this war – and during war time.

It is legitimate to question whether or not we are undermanned or undersupplied. There are plenty of conservatives who want to get ‘er done. Stop messin’ around. I would support that action. Many in this country I believe would support that action. Is there a sniper? Drop a 500 pounder on that position. Is there an IED? Find out who did it and hold them, their family and friends responsible because it through the lack of action by their friends and family that allowed the IED to be completed.

It needs to be known that we will not tolerate defeat and will not accept the words or actions supporting the enemy in any way.

Your sentence, “This administration thinks it’s more important to give no-bid contracts…..” is a repeated attack that is neither productive nor provable. You cannot possibly speak for what anyone else “thinks”. It is impossible to have a debate on the premise you laid out and not even worth it. It is a diversionary tactic that gets people upset.

The same with the smear of the Swift Vets. They served honorably, this discussion is diversionary, if you do not believe these Democrat and Republican Swift Vets that is fine but is NOT relevant to the discussion on this thread. It only causes more argument and not finding of common ground.

Who did or didn’t serve is not relevant to the discussion of pulling out of Iraq either.

I know you want to have a better discussion and I know you want to be persuasive so I’m trying to help. I hope you don’t find it condescending but hope you do find what I’m saying something to learn from.

While we can all learn from each other, it’s best to stick to the topic at hand.
Big Bang Hunter says:

November 16, 2006 at 12:25 am

“John Kerry served honorably and was smeared by Karl Rove’s phony Swift Boat Vets.”

– HeWithTheFunnyHead’s Carreer Le shame

– First He manages to shoot himself in the a**, not once but twice, with granade launchers, on one occasion fighting a pitched battle with a sand bank, and the other with a rice box. Then he gets into a really nasty firefight with a 15 year old caught in the crossfire, whom he bravely shoots in the back as the kid is trying to escape with his life. He does all this in between covert trips to Cambodia, wearing his magic hat, cussing out a President who hasn’t taken office yet, on a swiftboat he’d have to carry on his back to reach his sortie point.

– On all three occasions He puts in for Truthiness to power medals, writing up his own action reports. Then, not wanting to let the MOVIE CAMERA he took with him to Nam go to waste, he gets a local village elder to gather up some of the colorful local folk, and help him restage his mighty battle with the unarmed teenager for the Camera.

Then he comes back and gets involved with a group, throwing someone elses medals away, lying in front of Congress, blackmailing others to give false testimony, and visiting illegally with the enemy leadership in Paris. When it turns out his “groupies” are plotting the assassination of a sitting Senator, he slips out the back door.

– He can’t get his Dishonorable Discharge recinded, so in between times he gets someone to forge a silver medal award for his records, but unfortunately they don’t know what they’re doing, so they mark it with the wrong insignia. Carter gives him a pardon, along with all the other dishonories, but damn it, all records stay intact, so that doesn’t whitewash his records enough. He writes letters over and over, asking the Navy Department to alter his records, but they refuse, citing the records retention laws.

– He runs for president, refusing to make his service records public, claiming 236 men, (as you called them very dishonestly leaf “Karl Rove’s phony Swift Boat Vets”), many of them decorated hero’s in their own right, are all liars out to get him.

– He’s challenged endlessly to release his records, even offered 100 thousand dollars to do so. He’s challenged to duke it out in a court of law, but that’s out because it would require open depositions, and “discovery”, along with under oath testimony, all of which is to Kerry what Garlic is to a Vampire.

– To date he has produced nothing, nada, zero, except blustering claims, and cries of “everyone” lying to destroy him. It takes one short letter of request, 5 minutes to fill out a form DD-180, plus the cost of a stamp. I recieved copies of my service records in approximately two weeks. Piece of cake, if you’re not a lying piece of **** like LurchKerry.

– So far, that’s been more than he can manage in almost 3 years. BS on a silver platter leaf.

– Besides all of that, the “Clan des battes” wrote BoyToy off. He’s “used goods”. The word is out that any further defense of the FlipFlopper is Verbotten, and just too embarrassing, even for their brand of infinate fecklessness. You must have missed the memo leaf.

– Bang
leaf says:

November 16, 2006 at 10:05 am

Baklava, I can’t prove what anyone thinks, it’s true, but I can see thier actions. What they have done is hire private companies to do jobs that used to be done by the military. This includes interrogating prisoners, feeding our troops, transporting supplies, etc. These companies are in it to make a profit, not to support our troops and the result is that they cut corners and our troops die because of it.

I only brought up the Swift Boat Vets because you brought up Kerry.

Bang, I’d love to see a credible source for all the wild accusations you made against Kerry. From John Kerry’s Wikipedia entry:

Several SBVT members were in the same unit as Kerry, but did not serve at the same time as Kerry’s service. Others were listed as serving in the same swift boat, but again not at the same time as Kerry. One of them, Stephen Gardner, served on the same boat with Kerry. Gardner, however, was not present for the events leading up to Kerry’s silver star, bronze star or purple hearts. Other SBVT members included two of Kerry’s former commanding officers, Grant Hibbard and George Elliott. Hibbard and Elliott have alleged, respectively, that Kerry’s first Purple Heart and Silver Star were undeserved. In addition, various members of SBVT have questioned Kerry’s other medals and his truthfulness in testimony about the war. Defenders of John Kerry’s war record, including most of his surviving former crewmates, have asserted that several organizers of SBVT had close ties to the Bush presidential campaign and that certain SBVT accusations were politically motivated and false.
Big Bang Hunter says:

November 16, 2006 at 10:36 am

“… [several] organizers of SBVT had close ties to the Bush presidential campaign”

– leaf – So as soon as they happen to support Bush, they automatically lose all credibility. The typical SecProg mind. If that’s what you come away with from that list of facts, that’s your best defense of any one of the dozens of issues, you’re simply unwilling to accept any facts. Besides your comment, that Bush has supporters deflects from the point, Kerry’s actions. I don’t debate with people that simply refuse to see things because it goes against (the old) party line. Good Day to you Sir!!!

(Like talking to one of Glenns sockpuppets – *snort*)

– “….and its seared…. seared into my memory…”

– Bang
leaf says:

November 16, 2006 at 11:25 am

Bang, I’m hardly a party line Democrat. I don’t even consider myself a Democrat. Kerry was not my first choice for a Dem presidential candidate. I voted for him only because he was 1000 times better than Bush. I didn’t vote for Clinton either time, nor did I vote for Gore. It’s a cop out to say you won’t debate when the truth is you have no credible sources to back up all you say about Kerry. If you have a problem with Kerry’s politics that is fine, but lying about his war record is not acceptable. I only brought up the ties to Bush campaign to support my assertion that Karl Rove is behind the SBVT. 236 Men, one of whom served on the same boat with Kerry vs. most of his serviving crewmates. Who are we to believe?
Severian says:

November 16, 2006 at 11:28 am

The only person lying about Kerry’s war record is Kerry himself. All he would have to do to put ALL of this to bed, permanently, once and for all, is to sign the form, an SF 180 if memory serves, that would release his military records for public inspection. You know, the same form Bush signed years ago. Not sign a limited release, not relase it to his lawyers, just sign the form and let’er rip. Bush did it, why won’t Kerry? Kerry does indeed have things to hide.

Still trying to find Rove behind every rock eh leaf? I think that borders on paranoia.
Baklava says:

November 16, 2006 at 11:28 am

leaf wrote, “but I can see thier actions. What they have done is hire private companies to do jobs that used to be done by the military.”

Your point is………………. …………………. ….

Oh I think I get it. You are against people working? No. That can’t be it.
You are for the military doing everything? No. That can’t be it.
You are mad at Bush and think he thinks it’s more important to give no bid contracts than to take care of our troops. Well. Now you’ve had to back peddle twice in one thread because your claims are not true. It’s like all departments in the government. I was in the Navy from 1988 – 1994 and I work for the state of CA now. The procurements (taking care of the people) are done at a low level and the managers (officers) sign the procurements. Managers and officers have the duty of taking care of the people underneat them. Bush has fought for funding for people in Iraq and Kerry voted against the 87 billion.

I would say that clearly Kerry cares less about the troops if you want to talk about what people care or think about!! just teasin…
Big Bang Hunter says:

November 16, 2006 at 12:12 pm

– leaf – theres nothing to debate. You don’t respond to a single one of the charges against Kerry. You cite a left-wing piece of propaganda trash, Wiki, that’s a laugingstock for a source, and then accuse others of “coping out” Project much? Wiki is altered daily, to stay in line with the Lefts talking points, and obfuscations. If you aren’t aware of that, you need to get with the program.

– Back during the Pres. elections, the entire section of Tar-ree-zay’s background that documented her Doctor Daddy, the one that was one of the founders of “FREELIMO”, the communist party of Mozambique, was redacted from Wiki. Just dissapeared overnight. Surprise, surprise. Use ANYTHING but Wiki. It immediately brands you as a blind ideolog. Maybe you were unaware, but you can’t duck the simple truth that John Kerry is an selfserving opportunist, that lied about his country, lied about his fellow brothers in arms, and lied about his service record.

– When he gets done trying to figure out a way to weasel out of just producing his records, plain and simple, then maybe, just maybe, you’ll have a single leg to stand on. In the mean time, as he continues to pravaricate, you’re making yourself look dupped anf foolish. What’s amazing is, that people who should know better by now, would still try to defend such a tool. Respond to the points, and stop the lame deflections. It’s insulting.

– Bang
leaf says:

November 16, 2006 at 12:48 pm

Baklava, my point is articulated in the sentence following the one you quoted. It’s called war profiteering. Kerry famously did vote for the 87 billion before it was loaded with tax cuts and pork for contractors. He wanted the money to go for supporting the troops, not Halliburton.

As for who supports the troops, have a look here. Yes, it’s a liberal blog, but the source is a group of veterans who served in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Severian, I agree that Kerry should release his records. But wait, what’s this?
leaf says:

November 16, 2006 at 12:53 pm

You’re right Bang. It doesn’t make sense to debate someone who refuses to see things that go against the party line. Project much?
Severian says:

November 16, 2006 at 12:59 pm

You need to do better than that leaf. Kerry did not specify that all of his records be released, I’ve seen copies of the form online before. He specified only certain releases, not a full release, and only to the Globe, not to the general public. Great scam, release partial records to a friendly media outlet only and then claim you’ve released your records. Compare this to what Bush did, sign a blanket release for anyone who wanted to look at them. What is Kerry hiding? Why is his discharge dated in the Carter years rather than back when he got out of the service? Why were his medals re-released/re-awarded again during the Carter years, instead of when they were originally awarded? Could it possibly be that he had a less than honorable discharge, and that Carter, who had the DOD change a lot of this in order to “pardon” draft dodgers and other malcontents, that Carter’s largesse resulted in Kerry being able to obscure the truth about his history?

Nah…that’s why he only released partial records to the Globe, he is proud of his service.
Severian says:

November 16, 2006 at 1:01 pm

I will also note that it was reporters from the Globe who wrote a pro-Kerry “biography” so he has his back covered by releasing things to them. And no matter what the Globe says, it was not a full release. And why, again, only to the Globe?
Big Bang Hunter says:

November 16, 2006 at 1:10 pm

“You’re right Bang. It doesn’t make sense to debate someone who refuses to see things that go against the party line. Project much?”

– You still have not addressed a single charge against Kerry in an intellectually honest way. The cold hard fact is Kerry refuses to produce his full service record. Period. Thats not a “party line”. It’s a fact. You should have quit with the first part of your post. You were doing good up till then.

– So then who exactly is projecting? Man it must be tough from your point of view. Kerry is toast, and still you feel compeled to try to defend the indefensible. Good luck with that.

– Bang
Big Bang Hunter says:

November 16, 2006 at 1:17 pm

– One of the ironies of the entire LurchKerry mess is I have it on pretty good authority that if he would have managed to dupe enough of the electorate to lie his way into office, he’d have had at least one problem immediately. As a vet with a dishonorable discharge, he would have been barred from holding any sort of secret clearence, let alone the highest, as the President always does. He would have either had to sit out of his own Intel cabinate meetings or get Congress to change the law.

– Actually it’s a mystery to me how a person even runs for CIC as a military service dishonorie, or is even eligible. Strange to say the least.

– Bang
Baklava says:

November 16, 2006 at 1:31 pm

leaf wrote, “It’s called war profiteering.”

I see. So you are against people in a risky situation doing a hard job working? no. That can’t be it. I think you must think that people should work for free in Iraq? No. That can’t be it. I dunno. I give up. I hear people explain in greater detail the charges you attempt to make and they even though they do so in greater detail fall FLAT on their face because there are audits going on daily by departments in this government. They basically have cubicles set up for people who daily are auditing prices, goods and services delivered, etc. When things are found to not be in compliance or not to the letter of a contract things change with either prices or goods and services delivered. That’s why critics who are more detailed than you fall FLAT on their face. Because you seem to without perspective just repeate charges recklessly. You’ve done so on this thread about Bush having “no plan”. I’m happy to see you did due diligence there. But you do not follow through with changing your behavior. You continue the same pattern of attack, accuse, charge. Why LEAF would you continue that pattern after having been called to the mat (figure of speech here) on 2 issues (1 – the no plan 2 – the issue of knowing what somebody thinks when you don’t).

Conversation is much more productive if there is clarity. I strive for clarity. I’m not perfect but I pick things to talk with you about and am only partially successful because you then continue on with the same pattern of behavior. It’s called going around in circles. You probably are a decent and intelligent fellow but I feel you need some help with clarity as the mud is so thick with what you say. I disagree with Bush’s solutions a lot. Bush is to the left of center and I’m a centrist conservative. But I think you misunderstand what Bush can or cannot do with a government with over a million employees.

Leaf wrote, “Kerry famously did vote for the 87 billion before it was loaded with tax cuts and pork for contractors.”

Characterize it how you wish. It had the extra armour, veterans benefits and etc and it was the plan being voted on with Democrat and Republican earmarks. There are plenty of Democrats who supported the troops. Kerry didn’t and you attack Bush as … I don’t know what. Your charge is something non-detailed about profiteering and contractors.
Big Bang Hunter says:

November 16, 2006 at 1:38 pm

– leaf – Has anyone ever bothered to inform you, (never mind personal reserch, you don’t look to hard for things you don’t want to find when you’re on the Left), that a great majority of the contracts that Halliburton accepts are so large that no one else bids for them, because they just don’t have the resources. Oh. You didn’t know about that. Well now that you do, what is your beef. that they bid for the contracts. You just don’t want anyone too? I don’t get it. What’s your point?

– Bang
Baklava says:

November 16, 2006 at 1:45 pm

Not to mention Bang there are teams of people whose sole job in life is to go into their cubicle everyday scouring through paperwork and also verify that products and services are delivered. To act like there is no oversight is simply an act. To act like there would be ZERO problems found and corrected is an act also. In CA where I work, things are always corrected and solved as government services are constantly updated, contracts are awarded and during contract fulfillment audited.

That makes two of us Bang that does not understand the point. But I know what it is. The point sells. I’ve talked to my neighbor who is sold on this idea and then freely admits a few sentences later that he doesn’t know any details but he “knows” that Bush is in on it.

It’s a sickness. People like negativity. It makes them feel good to talk bad about others. And mind you I have plenty to disagree with Bush about without displaying the sickness.
Big Bang Hunter says:

November 16, 2006 at 1:51 pm

– Yes…exactly Bak…as I’ve been saying for years, there are any number of bones to pick with Bush, from SS reform (lack thereof), to his “put Mexico first” zero Border control, but we seldom if ever get a chance because the Left, so desperate after so many losses, are all “Demonize Bush” with a pile of hair-brained conspiracy theories 24/7/365, and as a direct result we never get around to honest debate over Bush’s “real” short-comings.

– Bang
Baklava says:

November 16, 2006 at 2:01 pm

To me it’s about a debate on the issues. And there are SERIOUS issues that need addressed along with the GWOT.
leaf says:

November 16, 2006 at 2:41 pm

This is interesting. it looks like Nixon may have had it in for Kerry:

Mystery Surrounds Kerry’s Navy Discharge

As for questions of contracting here is one hearing with several Halliburton whistleblowers:

An Oversight Hearing on Accountability for Contracting Abuses in Iraq
Baklava says:

November 16, 2006 at 2:48 pm

It’s an old article that I’ve already seen leaf.

People blow whistles, problems get corrected. A hearing was actually called for due to “politics“… There are people doing auditing daily. You either let them do their job or charge them with incompetence and get new auditors….

Did you read the 27 page transcript leaf? Do you have a specific charge that relates to Bush’s desire to war profit? No. YOu don’t. You can only back peddle and then switch issues and continue your behavior of attack, accuse, charge with FALSE allegations. Why would you continue such behavior?
Big Bang Hunter says:

November 16, 2006 at 2:51 pm

– leaf – graft is a universal problem. Trying to tie it exclsively to Repulicans is the hieght of partisan reductionism.

– Heh – apparently the moonus battus over at Kos and LiarDog are “confused” over the Hoyer result. But at least a few are already throwing Mad Jack under the bus. Sample:

What’s our message if we had him (Murtha): “Tired of watching your congressmen go to jail. Vote Dem. We do corruption right, we don’t get caught.”

*smirkle*

– Bang
Baklava says:

November 16, 2006 at 3:05 pm

In the 27 pages, you see all charges and no other side of the story. There has been corrections made and practices changed.

I can tell you quite a few stories about state government in CA but I like my job and won’t.

Trying people in the court of public opinion was what that was. There was no opposing witness, no defense offered, no correction of the record, etc. Even if EVERYTHING leveled was true it was your original charge about Bush or somebody caring more about no-bid contracts as opposed to caring about the troops.

The fact that there are abuses that may or may not be corrected or fines imposed for does not substantiate your orginal reckless charge during war time.
Big Bang Hunter says:

November 16, 2006 at 3:09 pm

– If you want to see some of the results of “appeasment/anti-American” efforts by Ms Pelosi, and her lackies, this Hot Air video is just downright chilling.

– Bang
leaf says:

November 16, 2006 at 3:26 pm

Yeah, lots of oversight going on!
Sister Toldjah says:

November 16, 2006 at 3:30 pm

Bang, what is the direct link?
Baklava says:

November 16, 2006 at 4:04 pm

Leaf that was an opinion piece. There are tons of audits daily and constantly. SIGIR if cancelled was not cancelling oversight as you have charged.

Pointing to an opinion piece (camo’d as news) doesn’t change the fact that there is constant daily auditing.
Big Bang Hunter says:

November 16, 2006 at 4:09 pm

– That gets you to the page ST. Have to click on the Jihad watch video….

– Bang
Severian says:

November 16, 2006 at 7:47 pm

Un-Freaking-Believable! When leaf’s cursory web searching turns up evidence to support something a conservative points out about Kerry, namely that it appears he didn’t start out with an honorable discharge, suddenly it’s Nixon’s fault!

Gadzooks, is there no end to the lengths the left will go to to attempt to rationalize and excuse the behavior of their own?
Big Bang Hunter says:

November 16, 2006 at 11:05 pm

– Short answer Sev: “No”

– Desperation is as desperation does. The ironic thing is, as I pointed out to leaf hoping it would sink in, but not really expecting it too, after Lurch’s pecodello two weeks ago, the Left threw him in the wood chipper (they threw him under the bus first, but he’s too damn dense to “get it”), but still he persists. Ideological imprints, like bad habits, die really hard.

– Bang
G Monster says:

November 17, 2006 at 12:33 pm

I suggest you all go to Wikipedia and read up on John Kerry. Please look at who he was working for in 1962, and some of the speeches he gave prior to joining the service.

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