“24” under attack by CAIR

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24First, Keith Olbermann called the show “propaganda” for the administration in the WOT, and now the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) is worried that people won’t be able to tell fact from fiction. Here’s a CAIR press release (via K. Lo):

(WASHINGTON, D.C., 1/18/07) – A prominent national Islamic civil rights and advocacy group today expressed concern that the new story line on Fox’s “24” terror drama may have a negative impact on the national debate over civil liberties.

The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) said the explosion of a nuclear device near Los Angeles at the end of the most recent episode of “24” may also serve to increase anti-Muslim prejudice in American society.

SEE: Muslims Unhappy Over `24′ Portrayal (AP)

In a statement, the Washington-based group said:

“The raw emotional impact of fictional scenes that include widespread death and destruction in America may adversely affect the public’s attitude toward civil liberties, religious freedom and interfaith relations. The program’s repeated association of acts of terrorism with Islam will only serve to increase anti-Muslim prejudice in our society.

“We have communicated the American Muslim community’s concerns about this season’s story line to Fox officials and will work with the network to help viewers distinguish between televised fiction and actual world events.”

Great. I’d love to see how they try and distinguish the Islamofascists hell bent on destroying America in “24” from these very real Islamofascists. As far as that goes, there is no difference between the Islamofascists portrayed on “24” and the ones in real life.

But as usual, CAIR is hyperventilating apparently without reviewing the facts. If any of you watched the first two episodes of “24”, you saw the head of the fictional organization which resembles CAIR has been portrayed as a good guy who has done nothing wrong, and who – from what it looks like – will be a ‘mole’ of sorts who will be able to provide valuable information on what he hears in the internment-like camp he’s been put in to “President Palmer’s” sister, who is an ACLU-esque attorney, who will then, in turn, tell her brother.

I’ve said this before here and I’ll say it again: Rather than wasting time on fictional TV shows and trying to get conservative talk radio hosts kicked off the air, CAIR should get a hold on their Muslim brothers and restrain them from planning and committing terrorist attacks- like 9-11, 3-11, 7-7, and the hundreds of thousands of other terrorists attacks committed by Islamofascists around the world, because that’s what stirs up anti-Muslim sentiment, not shows like “24“.

86 thoughts on ““24” under attack by CAIR

  1. The program’s repeated association of acts of terrorism with Islam will only serve to increase anti-Muslim prejudice in our society.

    Really astonishing how the producers and writers of this show just happened to, out of all the groups in the world, pick Muslims out of the hat. Inexplicable. It’s almost as if they have an ax to grind or something. You would have thought they try to find some group that would plausibly commit terroist acts. Like, oh, elderly Lutherans.

    On the other hand, if CAIR is starting to worry about the “American Street,” then maybe they can pass that concern along to their splodeydope buddies.

    Right now CAIR is nothing more than a 21st Century version of the German-American Bundt.

  2. Oh, I knew this was coming. The minute I heard what the show was going to be about this year, I knew the muslims would go ape.

    So predictable.

  3. I’ve notice this season is full of ambiguity. The bigot to tried to beat up the teenage terrorist was right (for the wrong reasons). There’s plenty of debate over security vs. liberty. Jack is already falling apart emotionally. The twists and turns the writers insert should make this season far from black and white.

  4. Pingback: The American Mind / CAIR Freaking Out Over New Season of 24

  5. I’ve said this before here and I’ll say it again: Rather than wasting time on fictional TV shows and trying to get conservative talk radio hosts kicked off the air, CAIR should get a hold on their Muslim brothers and restrain them from planning and committing terrorist attacks- like 9-11, 3-11, 7-7, and the hundreds of thousands of other terrorists attacks committed by Islamofascists around the world, because that’s what stirs up anti-Muslim sentiment, not shows like “24”.

    Loves it!

    However, i do understand why muslims would get mad about a show like 24. Extreme pro-censor groups are always trying to cancel controversial shows that conflict with their interests. Just last year Dobson attacked the show “Postcards from Buster” for profiling children with same-sex parents. CAIR and Dobson should get together and censor the whole world! Until there in nothing left in this world! Chile looks like a giant penis: censor maps! Hollywood is liberal: censor! Church signs are advertise bible studies in a public place! WTF!: censor! CAIR needs to lay off “24” for it’s a brilliantly executed and well-planned show, and Dobson needs to lay off SpongeBob! It’s hilarious and entertaining! What’s next? Burning books? Thought control?

  6. BTW, not all terrorists are muslim. We still got the KKK and plenty of other groups of all races and colors commiting violent acts on innocent people.

  7. The difference between the two being that the ‘entertainment community’ doesn’t give a crap what James Dobson says, but do pay attention to CAIR.

    Nice attempt at moral relativism, though.

  8. “BTW, not all terrorists are muslim. We still got the KKK and plenty of other groups of all races and colors commiting violent acts on innocent people.”

    Your knee jerk reaction is noted, Sarah, with boredom, as is your second attempt at moral relativism. The “people of all stripes do it” doesn’t cut it when a majority of terrorist acts in the world are committed by extremist Muslims – not the KKK, and not ‘other groups.’ No, all terrorists are not Muslims, but most terrorist acts are committed by Muslims. Deal with it.

  9. I don’t know Sis, maybe sarah has a point…I’m getting tired of the Mormons forcing people gunning down people with only one wife, the damned Christian Scientists blowing up hospitals, and worst of all, the continued Amish assault on zipper manufacturers and their attempts for force a raw milk jihad on everyone. It’s a nightmare I tell ya, Muslims are hardly a blip on the screen with all this violence from other groups. :-"

  10. Sev wrote, “Muslims are hardly a blip on the screen with all this violence from other groups.

    I think second place award goes to the peace activists committing violence in the name of peace…

    Then, 3rd place would be the evironuts hurting people in the name of the environment with spikes in trees that hurt loggers and vandalism that damages SUV’s and burning of new housing communities.

    Oh. I forgot about the French “youths” who burned 5,000+ cars for their cause. Oh wait a minute they were muslims so that goes back to militant extremist muslims.

    All of the what 23 wars/skirmishes going on they are all with Muslims. I think Muslims must have valid points and must be legitimately frustrated.

    I know a cure for frustration!! Love not war!! Women of the world – grab your nearest muslim and unfrustrate him! OK. That was wrong. I apologize for that one there. (Larry the Cable guy humor there).

  11. Amazing, You can always count on soembody to bring up US Christians in response to observations on Muslim violence and intolerance.

    Yup. Some people are born stupid, some achieve it, and others thrust it upon us.

    Or something.

  12. Sorry I used Christians as an example. I am assuming that you are a christian so I was trying to make a point that even a self-proclaimed christian could commit an act of violence. Saying you follow Christ is not the same as believing in Christ, just as saying you’re muslim does not make you a true muslim. Must I remind you that Muhammad Ali refused to fight in Vietnam because he was muslim. Some people make up what they want to believe and what they want to get out of religion. I personally believe the basis of any religion is peace and forgiveness but other may not. Others may support killing people in the name of terrorism or islam or the environment. We should forgive, not attack. How do you expect them to forgive us, if we can’t forgive them. It’s up to someone to be the better man. I’m trying to say that all terrorists are the same no matter what race or religion they come from. Majority does not make it the truth. These are only my opinions. They may be wrong. I like “24” It’s a good show. But muslims are not the only ones capable of destruction.

    It’s not stupid to want peace.

    Psalms 34:14

  13. Well,sarah, if they’re dead, it doesn’t matter if they forgive me or not.


    Must I remind you that Muhammad Ali refused to fight in Vietnam because he was muslim.

    Good an excuse as any and much better PR than saying he didn’t want to inconvenience himself or was too terrified of getting killed to do his duty, but don’t even remotely assume it was due to his muslim “faith” or any problem with violence. His “non-violence” didn’t stop him from pounding the living crap out of anyone who got into a ring with him. Very non-violent

  14. Severian, but do you forgive them? Who the f**k cares about them! It’s your soul. Millions of people can die without forgiving you, cuz a grudge can kill, so that’s what they died of anyways, but how about your soul?
    And boxing is a sport. Do you consider banning sports? I suppose war is a sport to you as well. Let’s see how maybe innocent people we can kill before we get killed ourselves. Perhaps he was selfish. But it’s not one’s duty to fight for a cause they don’t believe in. We need more troops in Iraq.
    I wish more people played with balls instead of guns.

    Edited – language. –ST

  15. Everyone wants peace I suppose. But we’re not doing a good job of achieving it. Perhaps it’s unattainable. I think I’m gonna go pray now and worry about my own soul now. Perhaps making peace with yourself is the only thing you can do. My mama tells me not to argue but I get so stubborn and carried away sometimes. It’s how wars start. I’ll stop. It’s hard, but nothing is truly impossible if you put a little effort into it. Believe what you want.

  16. Your answer would be wrong. What was your answer since you wrote, “It’s not stupid to want peace. insinuating that somebody thought it was stupid to want peace.

    BTW, Sarah WHY did you have to use the “F” word?

  17. Sarah wrote, “It’s how wars start.

    Wars start when people attack others as in 9/11. What would’ve been your response?

    The Global War on Terror is being waged on many fronts including non-militarily. I applaud our LONG effort waged against terrorists. Just because you disagree doesn’t give you the right to make accusations against our intentions or desire for peace. We want peace. Peace is not submitting. I will not submit to anyone but a woman. :)

  18. My mama tells me not to argue but I get so stubborn and carried away sometimes. It’s how wars start.

    Un-freaking-believable. So let me get this straight – you’re willing to simply let the islamofascists have their way, anywhere they want, because resisting them is “how wars start”???? :o

    Your mama, unfortunately, was wrong. You do not need two parties to start a war. One will do quite nicely.

    The islamofascists have made it clear that they have been at war with us for some time. We have three options: convert to their 7th-century concept of islam, surrender and live the dhimmi life, or fight back and beat them. The third option sounds right to me. Tell us, are you choosing A or B?

  19. Bak, that’s a good post. It throws a light on the Iraqi situation you seldom see.

    I also would recommend Malkin’s post on the late Lt. Mark Daily. Sarah, in particular, might find some of her questions answered by the excerpt from Lt. Daily’s MySpace site. It’s a powerful, well-written exposition of why we are doing what we must do.

  20. The Islamists don’t want peace, except that which comes after they crush every non-Muslim state on the planet. You can talk to them if you wish, but they want you to submit to them or die, so all you have left to discuss is how quickly you will roll over for them.

    Further, what the Islamists preach is NOT a “perversion” of an otherwise peaceful faith. Everything they say, everything they do is firmly rooted in the Koran, the haditha, or the sunna. It may be an extreme form of Islam, but it is not a perverse one.

    To inanely claim that “everybody wants peace” today is as irresponsible as was Nevile Chamberlain believing he could sit down with Adolph Hitler and make a reasonable compromise, man to man. Some people want you dead, and the fact that you’re willing to try talking to them only proves in their mind how debased and worthless you are.

    We did not cause 9/11, we did not deserve it. Nor did we deserve the first WTC bombing, or the African embassy bombings, any more than Leon Klinghoffer deserved to be murdered in his wheelchair or Robert Dean Stethem deserved to be beaten to death. Israelis do not deserve to be slaughtered on their buses, in their restaurants, in their homes. Sudanese Christians do not deserve to be massacred. Buddhist and Hindu Indonesians do not deserve to be beheaded.

    All of these things are being done by people who believe it is their holy duty to do so, and that they are instantly rewarded with Spring Break in Paradise if they die conducting jihad.

    You deal with this kind of retarded death cult the same way you deal with any other toxic or predatory threat. Go ahead and negotiate with cholera, sit down and find common ground with ebola, link arms and sing Kumbaya with AIDS. The rest of us will still be here long after your corpse is lowered into its grave, and we’ll be marvelling at the stupidity that would lead anyone to embrace death.

    In the meanwhile, many of us will be interceding with our lives to preserve silly nincompoops from being forced into burkhas or being stoned to death if they leave the house, or being crushed to death by stone walls if they’re gay, or being beaten if they cheer at a football game. We do not ask your permission to do so. We don’t do it for you per se, but for the entire civilization that we think is worth defending from the darkness.

  21. Have you read the qu’ran? It’s an expanded version of the bible for god sake! Have you been to Iraq? We need more troops, why don’t y’all enlist and fight for the holy war. History is repeating itself. It’s vietnam over again.
    “God can’t you people see that history repeats itself. It’s following in the footsteps of the failure that was vietnam. It wasnt our business to go there and fuck it all up in the first place. We should have just minded our own business and not f*****[censorship is so un-american] with their government. It’s gonna stay the way it is forever and our being ther isnt gonna change it or anything. We’re just making it a lot more complicated and causing more drama than there already was. We’re trying to change the way things have been for centuries in a few years of war. No way thats gonna happen.” –b.
    Futhurmore, we are hurting ourselves. Using money we don’t have to fund a fight we will never win. College tuitions are going up, gas prices, so on.
    Jesus would be ashamed. He said, “only throw rocks if you have never sinned.”
    Sorry about the f word. I suppose some people still have backward ideas about freedom of speech. But the young will rise, like the hippies of the 60s, the youth of this nation have a legacy to live up to. They must stop our nation from becoming a fascist regime.
    But seriously why aren’t y’all soldiers? We’d be “winning” with more passionate people such as yourselfs.
    9/11 only occured cuz our government wasn’t functioning properly. I remember there were fears of an attack back in august, but nobody did anything to prevent it. 9/11 could have been prevented!
    It’s oil I’m telling you. The government is screwing with you and you are blindly following. Read Vonnegut’s new book. Pg. 42.

  22. Great White Rat, we don’t just have three choices. We have so many choices. They are just angry cuz america has been messing with them since world war one. The extremists can’t take it anymore. Brush up on history. The Mid-east hasn’t always looked this way. Osama, was after all, trained by us. I’m not saying what they are doing is right, but what we are doing is not right either. They believe, just as we do, that they are justified in what they are doing. Our crusades are so 7th century.

  23. And I was all for Saddam getting overthrown, but it should have done by the Iraqi people. If they wanted change they could have gotten it. After all it wasn’t the spanish that made us fight the english to gain our independence, it was us americans.

  24. f*****[censorship is so un-american]

    But being a potty mouth apparently is eh?

    Nice that you, like every liberal, fall back on the lame chickenhawk “if you like it so much why don’t you enlist” meme. We have people on this site who have done just that, and people support the effort in different ways. Like supporting what we are trying to accomplish, rather than acting like a petulant 5 year old kicking the seatbacks and whining because they don’t want to go to Grandma’s but the parents are taking them anyway.

    The Koran is an expanded Bible eh? I guess Mein Kampf was just an expanded version of Tom Sawyer too. Just boys being boys after all. It’s painfully obvious you either have never read it, or have a serious reading comprehension problem.

    When you get thru patting yourself on the back for being such wonderful paragon of virtue, maybe you’ll open your eyes and let reality in a bit, as you peer thru the eyeslit in your burkha.

  25. And I was all for Saddam getting overthrown, but it should have done by the Iraqi people.

    Yeah, we should just have sat there and let him become even more of a festering threat, continue to attack our aircraft, make further attempts to assassinate US leaders, etc. until his own people got their kit together and overthrew him. I guess in your mind, we should have waited until the Japanese overthrew Tojo and Hirohito after Pearl Harbor too, how dare we go attack Japan!

    I hope you weren’t willing to hold your breath waiting for that little pipe dream to happen. How many totalitarian dictatorships have you ever seen overthrown by the oppressed people? Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy? Ooops, no, we did that too.

    I think we see a theme in your “thoughts” here, you’re mad at the Iraqi people and don’t care if they suffer, because they didn’t “do their jobs” and overthrow Saddam. So you’re mad at us for doing it, and at them for not doing it, so you apparently don’t care that they were brutalized before, and will be even more brutalized if this effort fails. Nice…good Christian sentiment there, “I don’t care if they were being killed and brutalized by a despotic dictator for decades, with casualties approaching a million, it’s not my problem.”

    8-|

  26. Congratulations, Sarah. Never before have I seen so many extreme-left cliches, conspiracy theories, and outright nonsense packed into one post. You aren’t an editorial writer for the NYT or the Nation, by any chance, are you?

    First, you start echoing Ted Kennedy, which is always a sign you’re disconnected from reality: It’s vietnam over again…It’s following in the footsteps of the failure that was vietnam.
    Well, it will be if you have your way. By now we all know that we had the Vietnam war won by the early 70’s – Ho Chi Minh was ready to throw in the towel. That was until his friends on the left here started noisily calling for our defeat. That gave them hope to continue. The final cost, including the millions who were slaughtered, is entirely the responsibility of our leftists. I’m willing to bet you don’t care any more about the fate of the Iraqi people than the libs in the 70’s did about the Vietnamese.

    And we can always count on the unhinged moonbats to trot out the chickenhawk meme: But seriously why aren’t y’all soldiers?

    You don’t really want to go there, do you? If your house is on fire, I’m sure you’ll call the fire department – even though you’ve never sat in the hook-and-ladder next to a Dalmatian in 20 degree weather on the way to a three-alarmer. You probably eat bread, even though you’ve never had to get up at 3am to plow the wheat field.
    Besides, if we follow your logic, no one can have an opinion on military matters unless you’ve served. So the policy will be made entirely by the professional military and veterans groups. Fine by me – let’s listen to the generals, the marines, and the Legionnaires while Pelosi, Clinton, and Kennedy must be quiet. By the way, I did serve in the military, so by your standards I can speak. And if you haven’t, by your standards you should shut the hell up.

    Then your wander into further irrelevance: College tuitions are going up, gas prices, so on.
    Uh, it’s called the economy. One reason college tuitions are going up because we have this obsession that anyone who’s ever finished a Dick-and-Jane book must go to college. Supply and demand, and all that. And where I live, the gas prices are down over the past year.

    Then you predictably lunge into the my-rights-are-absolute idiocy: Sorry about the f word. I suppose some people still have backward ideas about freedom of speech.
    Freedom of speech is about the government banning political speech. It doesn’t give you the right to toss profanities anywhere you please. ST has standards of decency for commenters here. If you don’t want to observe them, it’s her right to edit you, warn you, or ban you.

    Looking back to the days of bad LSD, you stumble onward: But the young will rise, like the hippies of the 60s, the youth of this nation have a legacy to live up to.

    Yeah, look at the legacy of the hippies. Millions dead at the hands of dictators and disease, nearly world domination by totalitarians, and your crowning achievement, an islamofascist Iran that we need to deal with today. Thanks loads. You guys should have showered more and demonstrated less.

    More incoherence: They must stop our nation from becoming a fascist regime.
    Oh, so Bush is still Hitler? Funny – I’m pretty sure Hitler never let his opponents win an election. Can you show me where he did? And the fact that you’re able to spew your nonsense, right out here in the open, is proof you’re detatched from reality. If you were right, we’d have carted you off to a re-education camp by now and forced you to hunt, pray, and watch NASCAR.

    Now you peek out from under the tinfoil hat and mumble: 9/11 only occured cuz our government wasn’t functioning properly. I remember there were fears of an attack back in august, but nobody did anything to prevent it. 9/11 could have been prevented!

    OK…so the same people who claim Bush had no right pre-emptive in Iraq insist he should have been pre-emptive about 9/11. Got it. Dr. Rat diagnoses you with an acute case of BDS. Take in three Mark Steyn columns and call me in the morning.

    Struggling in the strait-jacket, you finally screech: It’s oil I’m telling you. The government is screwing with you and you are blindly following. Read Vonnegut’s new book. Pg. 42.

    Yeah, it’s the oil. If the oil was all we wanted, we could have bought off Saddam the way the French and the Russians did. Much cheaper. Or invaded Saudi Arabia instead – they have a lot more oil and had a lot weaker military.

    And Vonnegut isn’t even a good fiction writer, much less a student of geopolitics.

  27. we don’t just have three choices.

    WRONG, Sarah. Those are the only choices they give you. You cannot appease them. They’ve attacked the French and the Russians, neither of whom do a thing to offend them, and who are even on their side against us.

    Get it through your head – they want YOU dead. They want ME dead. They want EVERYONE dead who does not believe what THEY do. Everyone who does not believe like they do is an abomination who needs to be exterminated.

    They’re very clear about this. Read what they post it on the internet. Listen to them call for jihad against the West. For some reason, you don’t believe it. You think it means something else. Guess what? It doesn’t matter what you think they mean. What matters is what they think it means, and to them it means they want to kill.

    They want to kill civilization as we know it. They hate it. It’s a complete and total abomination, that they consider it their duty to destroy or die trying.

    They don’t care if you’re a conservative or a liberal. They don’t care whether you voted for Bush or Kerry. They don’t care whether you’re a Christian, a Hindu, or an atheist. They don’t care if you have a Ph.D or dropped out of high school. They want to kill you simply because you EXIST. That is intolerable in their view of the world. You must not be allowed to soil the purity of their Islamic dream.

    You cannot appease them. You cannot deflect (aside from momentarily) them. You cannot buy them off. They are looking to kill. They believe their god demands the slaughter of the unbeliever. And the West doesn’t believe. Therefore it must be destroyed.

    I have a target on my back. You have a target on your back. So do Howard Dean and George Bush. We are all marked for death at their hands – if they can get their hands on us, or some weapon that can kill us.

    What part of that escapes you?

  28. The young are rising, Sarah, They’re enlisting.

    Your chickenhawk argument is beyond contempt. I don’t really know why I am responding after you shot your last justification to be debating here with that one.

    And finally, your gloss on the Koran betrays your own ignorance. No, you have never read it if you think it’s just “an expanded version of the Bible.”

    Unless you count among the expansions the exhortation to kill the unbeliever and take his property and women (rather odd, that last part, since it implies there’s a difference between property and women in the Muslim world).

    But you can bet the Islamists have read the Koran, It’s the only legitimate source of literature and inspiration to them, and they’ll readily quote you all the justifications you want why Allah and Mohammed wants you dead or enslaved.

  29. They’re very clear about this. Read what they post it on the internet. Listen to them call for jihad against the West. For some reason, you don’t believe it. You think it means something else.

    The ability of the “peace loving” liberals to completely ignore reality never ceases to amaze me. It’s exactly analogous to pre-WWII Europe. Hitler publishes Mein Kampf, which unambiguously said EXACTLY what he wanted to do and what he believed, and everyone ignored it. The Islamists have done exactly the same thing, but apparently it’s preferable to some people to ignore it because it either frightens them or something. They consistently refuse to face the reality, and it doesn’t matter how many times our enemies say they want to kill us, they still refuse to believe or even acknowledge it.

    Lack of knowledge of history? Lack of will? A childish desire to hide from reality? Mental illness? I think the latter comes closest, that and a childish immaturity. It’s like someone with severe chest pains who refuses to go to the ER because they don’t want to face the fact they’re having a heart attack, and we know all too well how that usually works out, death or severe damage. The allegory is all too accurate.

  30. Exactly right, Sev. George Santayana wrote that those who cannot remember the past are condemned to fulfill it. Sarah is exhibit A on that count.

    There’s a quote, attributed to a Holocaust survivor, who was asked what he learned from his sufferings in a concentration camp. His response was “When someone says he wants to kill you, believe him.”

    Sarah, and the rest of the extreme left, are completely out of touch with those realities. Steve Skubinna says it perfectly in his post above:

    many of us will be interceding with our lives to preserve silly nincompoops from being forced into burkhas or being stoned to death if they leave the house, or being crushed to death by stone walls if they’re gay, or being beaten if they cheer at a football game…We don’t do it for you per se, but for the entire civilization that we think is worth defending from the darkness.

  31. OMG Sarah!!! You do realize without the help of the French the American Revolution would most likely not have happened. Layfayette basically became George Washington’s adopted son. His influence with the French Government helped us gain the help of the French Navy. Also how many years did the Founding Fathers search for a ‘diplomatic’ solution to end the tyranny of England?? Originally the Founding Fathers only wanted England to follow her own laws. It was only after years of diplomatic BS that our Founding Fathers decided it was time for Independance. Do us all a favor and stop reading that meglomanic Vonnegut, and pick up a real book on American History. Diplomacy has never really solved Anything in human history.

    Also, you paraphrase that those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. No one here as forgot Vietnam. No one here is interested in repeating Vietnam. 1st and formost, let us remember that in Vietnam we were only “trying to contain Communism”. We are striving for Victory in Iraq. That is a huge difference. 2nd in Vietnam we had the draft and were drafting people who didn’t want to be in the military, this force in Iraq is all volunteer. Most of the men who are actual infantry want to be in the infantry. 3rd In Vietnam we, America, stupidly allowed the French to resume it’s colonialization of Vietnam. In Iraq Our stated Victory is for Iraq to be self governing with Everyone’s best interest served by the new Democratic Government. I want to know, How is this ANYTHING like Vietnam?? Because soldiers are dying?? It is not the same, and Our Troops don’t particularly appreciate the comparison.

    The hippies of the 60’s became the Yuppies of the 80’s, and they became the Neo-Con’s of the present. Seems to me the hippies saw the light, and came to our senses. That is once they gave up drug use. – Lorica

  32. How is this ANYTHING like Vietnam??

    The fact that withdrawal will be catastrophic for the natives. Our total and complete abandonment of Vietnam resulted in 3-4 million deaths in the decade following, the Killing Fields of Cambodia, massive casualties in Laos, ethnic cleansing of the indigenous Montanyard populations, tens of thousands of boat people dying at sea…and the Communists have nothing on the Islamists with respect to violence and mayhem.

    At least in Vietnam the Communists didn’t follow us home to attack, the Vietnamese communists just wanted us out so they could brutalize their own people, the Islamists have made no bones about the fact that they harbor far more aggressive ambitions.

  33. Sev, I was comparing past to present not to the future. It will be tragic if we abandon the Iraqis like we left the South Vietnamese, and many many people will die. How our friends on the left can believe they are being compassionate by leaving Iraq, is foolish thinking at best, and will make for a middle East wide catastrophe, if not wider. We will absolutely lose standing with Every Nation under the sun, and it will set back world peace for a generation or longer. As the major supporters of Sunni or Shia pour equipment into Iraq to support their side. It is sad the lazy thinking that is employed by those who believe that pulling out is the right idea. Iraq is NOW the central front in the War On Terror, and NO amount of wishful thinking is going to change that. – Lorica

  34. I know Lorica, I am just fond of pointing out one of the only two instances where Iraq is like Vietnam…in the fact that military victories were undermined by weak willed politicians and liberal whiners, and how the end result will be identical if we follow the Vietnam paradigm. Notice how the liberals never acknowledge these Vietnam parallels.

  35. Guys, the far left Dems are proud of what they did in Vietnam, and they will be just as proud of what results from throwing the Iraqis to the wolves. There is no shame to appeal to there.

    And when I say far left Dems, I suppose what I mean is the leftward half of the party. Doesn’t seem such a fringe.

    Well, if we bail things will get worse, and sadly, we will deserve what we get. Lots of blood, and not all of it brown and Arab, is going to be on our hands.

  36. “Get it through your head – they want YOU dead. They want ME dead. They want EVERYONE dead who does not believe what THEY do. Everyone who does not believe like they do is an abomination who needs to be exterminated.”

    Sorta like what you are doing. Muslims don’t believe what you believe so you think that gives you a right to kill them. They either have to convert to your ideals or get bombs thrown on their heads.

    There are a lot of crazy stuff in the bible about killing people for things like adultery, and marrying a non-christian.

    Back in college I had this brilliant religious studies professor and we had to read books like the koran (qu’ran is more accepted by scholars), bible, talmud, veda, and tao in my classes.
    Jihad means “to struggle with one self.” It’s suppose to be a struggle for faith, which can be easily misintrepreted as a struggle to fight for one’s faith, but it’s actually a struggle to find God within. There are different types of jihad. The other form of jihad that I remember is the fight to control one’s “evil” thoughts such as compulsion. War is condemned and I wish I had the passage that states that the only war one should be fighting is within. Also women are stated to be equal and the qu’ran condemns those who treat women with difference. Jesus is awknowledged in the qu’ran as the one who came before Muhammad and his teaching are to be understood before one can understand Muhhamad’s teachings. The muslim God is stated to be the God of the Hebrews. There is an exact excerpt from the old testament, where david slays goliath that is written word for word in the qu’ran.

    I’m sure that extremists will try to twist the words around for their own convenience for it is very easy to make the qu’ran say what you want it to say cuz it’s written in a really poetic way much like the bible. People burned witches and justified their actions by quoting the bible. Gay men are lynched in backwards parts of the country beacuse some people seem to be convinced that the bible condemns homosexuality. As Shakespeare said, “Even the devil can cite Scripture for his purpose.” That goes for any scripture whether it is the veda, bible or qu’ran, etc.

    It seems to me that there are extremists on both sides. I know you’re convinced that all muslims want to kill you, and I am aware that there are extremists who do, but there are people in other countries who think all americans want to kill everyone. When I travel, as I do, and which more people would as well, I am faced with so many people who absolutely detest america because of our arrogance. I cringe when they tell me that they hate Americans because they think we want to make everyone American. They say we’re stupid, that we all support destruction. But not all of us are like that. I wish they’d come see us and see that not all of us want to put blacks, jews, muslims, and homosexuals in concentration camps. Some seem convinced that if we had it our way, we would. Maybe if you had it your way you would. You’d probably put liberals in camps, too.

    Our foreign policy is making more enemies. There are putting America in danger with all these wars They are raging, just as the middle east has put itself in danger cuz a bunch of dimwits thought it’d be brave and heroic to blow themselves up.

    Of Course, as St. Augustine said, it’s always the people with the small guns that are called terrorists, while the ones with the big guns are embraced as heroes.

    “We all have to be concerned about terrorism, but you will never end terrorism by terrorizing others.” –Martin Luther King III

  37. No Sarah, they just have to give up on killing unbelievers. Your moral equivalence is as appalling as it is morally indefensible. But fear not, stupid little coward, you will be protected along with everyone else, because it’s not really possible to defend civilization only for those who deserve it. Enjoy your free ride on the backs of people better and smarter than you.

    Now I have already wasted far too much time on your stupidity. Go away and pester the other preschoolers. If you ever decide to grow up you can mix with the adults.

  38. They’ll give up killing unbelievers when you give up killing unbelievers. Don’t you see that we are all the same. Your ancestors must have lynched blacks, maybe you still do every year on king’s birthday. Heartbreaking.

    After all, war is fear cloaked in courage. And calling me a stupid little coward is quite childish. And I don’t feel protected. Ever since you guys started this “war on terrorism” I feel my world is getting more and more dangerous. I felt perfectly safe before.

    I’m sorry I’m open-minded and educated. YOu’re not defending civilization, you’re ruining it with your war and games.

  39. Pingback: Samurai Soapbox » 24: Poor Jack, First the Chinese, Now CAIR

  40. WE started the War on Terror??? I’m abit lost here, I thought the WOT started because someone was “struggling within themselves” By RUNNING PLANES INTO OUR BUILDINGS!!!!! Hello???? Prior to that, all retaliation against terrorists attacks were lame, to the point of useless. Talk about revisionist history. Good Lord!! I am sorry but if this is what passes for “open minded” and “educated” I will stay dumb and ignorant, cuz it is at least based in reality. Sarah what exactly is the stated reason the Al-Quida hates America? Can you tell me please? – Lorica

  41. Adopting a John Kerry-like haughtiness, Sarah looks at the common herd and sniffs:
    I’m open-minded and educated.

    Happily, she gives us an example of her open-minded, educated thought process a few lines earlier in the same post. With absolutely no evidence at all, she illogically accuses Steve Skubinna of this:
    Your ancestors must have lynched blacks, maybe you still do every year on king’s birthday.

    Sorry, Sarah. You’re not open-minded. You’re empty-headed. They are NOT synonyms. Check the dictionary for the difference.

    More later, after I’ve had the time to give her latest silliness the fisking it deserves.

  42. Happily, she gives us an example of her open-minded, educated thought process a few lines earlier in the same post. With absolutely no evidence at all, she illogically accuses Steve Skubinna of this:
    Your ancestors must have lynched blacks, maybe you still do every year on king’s birthday.

    You know, she’s awfully nasty and vindictive and potty mouthed for someone who claims to be such a devout Christian ain’t she? Hmmm….:-?

  43. How many times have we destroyed their buidlings? They attacked us once, we saw it as an invitation to attack them 10,000 times. For every blown up bus, we follow up with blowing up 80 towns. We are tempting them to blow up more buses. We’re pissing them off. We should build them a mosque. But that would be cowardly wouldn’t it? They think we hate them for being muslim. The whole world thinks we hate them and apparently some people do, so it’s easy for them to sell their stories to people. We need to prove to them that we don’t hate, however, all we are doing is increasing their hate. We say we’re helping them, but terrorist attacks have increased since we attacked Iraq, so obviously the Iraqi people do not consider us their saviors, nor are we creating a positive image of freedom and democracy. Don’t believe everything bush feeds you, we are not winning nor can we ever win. YOu can’t win a war on terror with terror. You cannot bring peace to a region by creating a war. It’s like killing the chicken to find the egg. Violence only creates more violence. You can wipe off all the terrorists off the face of this earth, but you’ll be creating more terrorists for their ideals will just grow stronger when they witness the destruction you’ve caused, just as our ideals grew stronger after 9/11. You’re giving them 9/11’s to whine about so that they can justify their actions against us.

    “If you are serious about fighting terror, the last thing you do is go around validating the premises they have built against you, if you can help it.” –?

    And if you look back on your comments against me you’ll see that you’ve all have said your share of nasty words towards me. I don’t care who started it, although, you probably think it’s important, so just let me take the blame. However, our arguments have exemplified exactly what is going on in this world. And we both think we’re winning by lashing out cruel words against each other. I am terribly sorry for doing so for I see now that I am only furthur justifying your ideals. By accusing you of being backwards, I have only created more hatred towards me, justifying your reasons to call me mentally ill, silly, and stupid. It was cowardly of me to lash out in anger and try to make you believe what I do, for you have your own beliefs and I cannot call them stupid in order to glorify my own. It only hinders my efforts. Terribly sorry.

  44. Sarah, one thing completely demolishes your argument, and that’s the fact that the US has gone out of it’s way to help the Islamic world, thru tsunami relief, acting to stop ethnic cleansing of Muslims in Bosnia, and many more incidents like this. What did it get us? Even more hatred and violence against us, no gratitude, and no change in the fundamentalist Islamic desire to kill and enslave us all. Yeah, we attacked the Islamists totally unprovoked, they never did a thing to us. Revisionist history on your part will not change the facts.

  45. Sarah you have so much to learn. Do you know just how much effort the Army Corps of Engineers has put into rebuilding Iraq?? Don’t be deceived by agenda driven people who hate conservative America. All I see in your arguements are the same thinking that is so prevalent in academia. I consider it tragic that deplomacy almost never works. If it was left to me, I would love it to. But it isn’t left to us. There are very evil people out there in this great big world. And these people aren’t interested in our diplomatic efforts. Look at North Korea, why would the Kim Jong Ill break his promise to us?? Diplomacy in action it did what it was suppose to. But part of it obviously failed. How many years did we in the US argue the issue of slavery, before we went to war over it?? History has a very long list of where the last resort was war, and good men had no other choice than to go to war with evil men. – Lorica

  46. Just a few thinhgs you might want to consider Sarah before making this all out to be the US fault.

    Islamic law states that there can never be peace with infidels (any non-Muslim). There can only be a temporary truce for strategic reasons.6 There can be no peace between dar al-Islam (the Arabic term for the house of Islamic peace – anywhere where the full Islamic law is in effect) and dar al-Harb (the house of war – non-Islamic societies).

    It is also permitted for Muslim leaders to lie for the furtherance of Islamic destiny. Thus, Palestinian leaders like Arafat can promise to pursue peace but keep their fingers crossed, so to speak. That is why we have this continuing cycle of bombings and terror, even though we are in a peace process. Islam will be peaceful when it suits it diplomatically. Yet it will rise up and break treaties or accords at will when it is to the strategic advantage of the faithful.

    Additional interesting information HERE. A worthwhile read.

    The West was thrilled March 26, 1979 when President Carter hosted the signing of a “peace treaty” by Israel’s Menachem Begin and Egypt’s Anwar Sadat. Carter wanted to quote one verse each from the Bible and the Qur’an about peace. There are some 400 such verses in the Bible, but his speech writers could find only one in the Qur’an.

    Carter declared: “In the Koran, we read: ‘But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou also incline towards peace, and trust in God…’ [Surah 8:61]. So let us now lay aside war….We pray God…that these dreams will come true.”

    Islam’s “dream” however, is not what Carter and Israel envisioned. The verse says “Allah” not God—and Allah hates Jews! Surah 8 is titled “Spoils of War.” Verse 65 says, “O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight….” Verse 67 says, “It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land.” The only “peace” offered is to those vanquished in jihad (holy war) who surrender to Muslim warriors. “Peace” in Arabic comes from the word salam, which means submission—unlike the Hebrew shalom which means genuine peace among friends.

    Additonally….

    According to shari’a (Islamic law), there can never be peace, only a temporary ceasefire, between the Muslim and non-Muslim worlds. This fact is found in any number of texts such as War and Peace in the Law of Islam by Professor Majid Khadduri, a Muslim expert on Islamic law. As Bosnian Muslim leader Alija Izetbegovic recently said, “There can be no peace or coexistence between the Islamic faith and non-Islamic societies….” This is Islam! But political correctness will not admit the unpleasant truth.

    Lying to promote Islam is considered honorable.

    Sad thing to say, but political Correctness will be our downfall as those who seek our destruction use it against us, and the media will play a willing part in this. We have already seen it from faked stories, to actual helping of terrorists by media reporters.

    It very well may be that Islam could be a religon of peace, but extremists have highjacked it for their own means, using to justify themselves in the killing of others, and until other Muslims stand up and with a untied voice cry out that this is wrong, nothing will change. Most “moderate” muslims stand silent.

    PC mentality is killing the US, and harming our ability to root out cells here in the US. The leaks to the media cause terrorists to monitor leaks and change tactics to avoid capture or detection.

    U.S. authorities said sleeper cells also operate in at least 40 states from Florida and New York to California and Washington state — living low-profile lives, often in ethnic communities. The September 2002 arrest of seven members of a terrorist cell in Lackawanna, N.Y., just south of Buffalo, was a first major clue to their existence.

    Between 2,000 and 5,000 terrorist operatives are said to be in the United States, many of whom are hiding in ethnic communities throughout the country, populated by millions of foreign immigrants, including illegal aliens for which the U.S. government cannot account.

    Link

    Not completely sure about this, but from what I hear, right here in my state of Michigan, is the Islamic Capitol in the US: Link

    Want to see a map that will scare you? Link

    But thats ok, it’s all OUR fault. Poverty makes these poor unfortunate little angels strap bombs to their chests and blow up women and children. (poverty myth has been debunked by the way before you start going on and on agreeing).

    Reading what you have written sarah makes me wonder just what it is you really want. You make it seem like war is the only thing the US wants and muslims are just mis-understood and chopping off heads, raping women and children (Even the UN gets into THAT act), so-called “honor” killings, mutilating womens genitalia, ect…. are just the way muslims defend themselves.

    Again, there can be no peace, because it states it in their belief system. Only a temporary truce, until the time is right to strike out and kill all non-believers. THAT is what the extremists believe, hold true to heart and carry out.

  47. Some of our actions may have been helpful, but some of them have not. “War is not the answer, only love can conquer hate!” We must not give up because they use hate. We shouldn’t stoop to their level.

  48. Allah means God in arabic, they don’t speak english obviously so they use Allah, salam is a greeting.

    But nevermind. That is all propaganda extremists who call themselves Muslim use. Christian and Jewish extremists use the same propaganda to justify violent acts.

    And if there are so many terrorist netorks in the US, then why don’t we bomb them.

  49. Sarah, you’ve moved past the NYT-editorial level and gone completely to the end of the scale – to full-fledged Ward Churchill/Cindy Sheehan lunacy and self-hate.

    Let’s start with this gem: Muslims don’t believe what you believe so you think that gives you a right to kill them.

    Oh really? Then I must have missed all the news stories about Lutherans and Amish grabbing Muslims in places like Detroit, which would be a target-rich environment, and beheading them on camera. Or the Jewish suicide bombers detonating themselves inside mosques. I have no beef with Muslims who want to live their lives, practice their religion, and leave me to my beliefs. I have a very big problem with those who want to kill anyone who doesn’t believe, and those who aid them. You have this exactly backwards. You statement should have read “The radical Muslims don’t believe what I believe so they think that gives them the right to kill.”

    Then this:There are a lot of crazy stuff in the bible about killing people for things like adultery, and marrying a non-christian.
    Do we kill anyone for adultery in the West? Hell, if you’re a Democrat it seems to be a prerequisite for the Presidency! Do we kill anyone for marrying out of their faith? If so, prove it. Post a link. Besides, you’re completely wrong on the theology too. Read I Corinthians 7:12-15, where Paul specifically permits marriage with unbelievers.

    And this one further demonstrates Sarah has no grasp of contemporary history: People burned witches and justified their actions by quoting the bible. Gay men are lynched in backwards parts of the country beacuse some people seem to be convinced that the bible condemns homosexuality.

    Uh, Sarah, in case you didn’t notice, the only ones who are sanctioning killing homosexuals these days are the Muslims you so ardently champion. Does this mean you’d like to see this practiced here? After all, then we’d be like them, and they do nothing wrong in your eyes….

    It seems to me that there are extremists on both sides.
    Nice try at moral equivalence, but it won’t wash. Have you ever heard the dictum that if everyone you meet is a total a###ole, maybe you’re the problem? The radical Muslims have been fighting with the Buddhists, in places like Afghanistan. And that’s nothing compared to the hatred they have for the Hindus. Which in turn is insignificant compared to the intense fury they have for Christians. And of course, that’s nothing more than a matchstick compared to the blowtorch of hatred they bear toward the Jews. Do you detect a pattern here, Sarah? Come on…try hard.

    Maybe if you had it your way you would. You’d probably put liberals in camps, too.
    Uh huh. We covered that delusion last time. For the record, I think liberalism is something of a mental disorder, certainly (you’re a scintillating example of liberalus noncomposmentus) but camps are more the style of what your friends on the left prefer. Remember how you earlier praised all the ’60s hippies? They were insolidarity with the likes of Mao and Pol Pot, who made Hitler look benign.

    Final gurgling: Our foreign policy is making more enemies. There are putting America in danger with all these wars

    Uh, no. Actually, given the choice between fighting the jihadis with Marines and soldiers in Sadr City or with firemen and EMTs in New York, I’ll take the former.

  50. Sarah continues:

    They think we hate them for being muslim. The whole world thinks we hate them and apparently some people do, so it’s easy for them to sell their stories to people.

    Yup, that’s the ticket.

    Like when we went into Kuwait at the request of a Christian government to kill Muslims – oh wait, that’s wrong. It was at the request of a Muslim government to save Muslims.

    Or maybe it was when we went into Bosnia and Kosovo to help the Christian Serbs wipe out the Muslims there – oops, sorry, got that one backward too. Actually, we went in on the side of the Muslims and against the Serbs.

    I know! Maybe it was when we caused the December tsunami a few years ago in order to wipe out thousands of Muslims in Indonesia – darn it, wrong again. Fact is, we, along with other haters like the Australians, poured billions of dollars into providing food, medicine, and supplies to the Muslim victims of that catastrophe.

    Hey, maybe it’s the fact that we them no foreign aid – oh no, my mistake. Egypt alone gets billions from us every year.

    Yep, real track record of hating Muslims there, Sarah. We do all that, and we’re still waiting for the love to pour in from the madrassas.

    So the reason islamofascists hate America has little to do with our foreign policy. Did it ever occur to you that those who think we hate Muslims believe that because that line is pounded into their heads by way of daily brainwashing by those who have a vested interest in keeping the local populace hating us because otherwise the locals might turn to hating them?

    At least that provides a reasonable explanation of why those people hate America. We still need to find out why you do.

    Then this gem: We say we’re helping them, but terrorist attacks have increased since we attacked Iraq, so obviously the Iraqi people do not consider us their saviors, nor are we creating a positive image of freedom and democracy.
    Do you know the meaning of non sequitur? You claim to be educated – did you never take one semester hour of logic? Fact is, the terrorists recognize that Iraq is THE central front in the WOT. They are pouring in jihadis from outside of Iraq in the hope that a high enough casualty count will convince the spineless left (hello, Sarah) here in America to give up. They are fully aware that that is their only hope of winning.

    And finally, this: “If you are serious about fighting terror, the last thing you do is go around validating the premises they have built against you, if you can help it.”

    If you’re serious about fighting terror, you stand up and fight it. You can ramble on ad nauseum about how America is the cause of all the evil in the world, and how we should not oppose the Islamists. To this I say: nonsense. If someone approaches me on a dark street late at night with an open switchblade, I do not particularly care about WHY he is attacking. To participate in such navel-contemplating on a national scale is suicide. I’m not up for that. And based on the other posts in this thread, neither is anyone else here except you.

  51. If you are serious about fighting the war on terror you do it in showing strength nad power in all you do.

    The terrorists were surprised and taken back when America woke up and attacked Afghanistan, they thought we were a paper tiger. They see strength as power and power as strength.

    Now they have lost that thought of the US and have grown eboldened….why you ask?

    Because they watch us very closely to judge our reactions, and they see that it may be possible if they just findthat magic numebr of deaths of americans that the Americans will crumble in on itself and slink away with its tail between its legs….they don’t need to defeat all of America, just hit that magic number and America will do it for them.

    There is two wars going on, and whether you believe it or not, both are tied together. The war on terror and the war within. And right now we have more of a chance in defeating ourselves from within than the terrorists EVER have of defeating us themselves.

    Leakers and the media are the terrorists best friends, they do the work they couldn’t do themselves, destroying America from within.

  52. The Money Quote:
    Wouldn’t it be absurd if, in the final analysis, the people who paint the target on our backs happen to be the same people who insist that we not respond when outsiders shoot at us?
    Amen Tammy, Amen!!! – Lorica

  53. Well, logically speaking, there’s always a reason behind everything that people do. We’ve got reasons, they’ve got reasons. You should care about why he is attacking you. If one is sad, one is not just randomly sad cuz they can be, there’s a reason behind it, perhaps a series of events that led up to it. People who commit crimes don’t just kill or steal because they can. There are reasons people do those things and the frustration usually isn’t even the person they kill or the store from which they steal from. If we could figure out why people commit certain crimes then we could prevent crimes from occuring. Sometimes people are scapegoats, but one must try to put themselves in the other person’s shoes. Why did that particular person choose that particular person as their scapegoat? Why did he go on a shooting rampage? Why did he rob the bank? Was it really greedy? I know films are usually seen as mindless entertainment, but most films, as well as books, focus around a series of events that lead up to the climax. The climax cannot occur if those events do not. Once the climax is reached, the problem is oftentimes solved by unraveling all the reasons (Mysterious Skin is a very controversial and tragic but interesting look at why people believe or turn out the way they do) behind what just occured during the climax. Sometimes, in movies where flashbacks are used, the viewer witnesses the climax at the very beginning (American Beauty or The English Patient), then then the film flashes back and shows the audience all the events that occured before the climax. Sometimes, as in Hamlet, the climax actually occurs before the story has even begun. However, Hamlet is a very unique and ambigious novel that does not take the usual path authors employ. There was even a movie I saw that showed the breaking point for a woman who then decides to go rob banks.

    And I personally define a terrorist as anyone who grabs a weapon and hurts someone else with it, whether it’d be a terrorist group or a nation. War is terrorism, therefore a war on terrorism is a bit absurd. I suppose according to an existentialist, everything, mankind itself, is absurd. So those kids probably weren’t surprised when countries broke out and started fighting over senseless things. It’s all such a Catch-22, this war, and this life.

  54. And I personally define a terrorist as anyone who grabs a weapon and hurts someone else with it,
    Sarah??? Does this include the police?? – Lorica

  55. Sarah wrote, “You should care about why he is attacking you.

    Yes. Understand that they are attacking you because of your ideals. “Kill the infidel” isn’t made up by westerners. Islamofacists want you dead because you don’t believe. Moral relativism muddies the water and gives us less clarity. When you Sarah do the moral relativism and act like there are as many or even 1/1000’th the Christians saying covert or die (the kill the infidel equivalent) then you have just muddied the water and the lack of clarity is more instructive about you than anyone else.

    Sarah with lack of insight wrote, “People who commit crimes don’t just kill or steal because they can.

    Well yes. Sometimes they do. Crimes aren’t always justified or done because we make people do them. In fact – more often than not people CHOOSE their path.

    Sarah who is not an expert in the criminal justice field I can tell wrote, “If we could figure out why people commit certain crimes then we could prevent crimes from occuring.

    Liberalism is the problem people. Utopia does not exist and you can’t prevent crimes by figuring out why people do them. Unless you are god.

    Sarah asked as if it’s never been asked before, “Why did he go on a shooting rampage?

    The guy shooting from the Chevrolet Caprice’s trunk while the other Islamic fanatic drove had a reason. Should we have satisfied his reasoning so that he didn’t have a reason??? Do you know what his reason was? He told people. Do you remember?

    Sarah wrote, “The climax cannot occur if those events do not.

    The sad thing is that you do not realize that it is our freedom of religion, our tolerance for homosexuals, Hollywood and other freedom related topics that are the so-called events/reasons for the climax of the Islamofacists targeting us. So removing the events and reasons would be removing our freedoms to placate Islamofacists. 90% of muslims aren’t stark raving mad and taking to arms/nukes/etc but the percentage that is is enough to warrant a LEADER to choose to PROTECT. It is up to the individual to turn the other cheek. Leaders do not turn the nation’s cheek. Leaders are obligated to take the steps necessary to protect. ACTING like somebody like Bush is unChristian or the American people are unChristian because we aren’t turning the other cheek is a perversion of the bible’s teaching. You don’t take a wife and offer her again to a rapist to show the rapist compassion. The husband is not obligated to do that. Neither is the American people or president obligated to offer up anybody to sick people who do not like us and are intent on killing as many of us (in their own words millions of us).

    Sarah wrote with wisdom, “And I personally define a terrorist as anyone who grabs a weapon and hurts someone else with it, whether it’d be a terrorist group or a nation.

    So we were terrorists for fighting in WW2? Are police terrorists for killing the watch tower serial killer shooting up people? Your moral relativism is more dangerous and judgmental than anyone who is for national security or law enforcement than I personally know.

    Pacifism (the belief in being passive at all times – it has to be all times because otherwise it’s not a belief – it’s just a desire to try to be passive) is dangerous because it lends towards evil people ruling and good people being subjugated. It is not God’s will. Pacifism is by far worse than vegetarianism because at least vegetarians are affecting their own health and lifespan. Pacifists are hurting others and leading others towards a path of lack of freedom and subjugation. Evil people do NOT care about the environment or prosperity. Evil lends towards poverty and death.

    Clarity is helpful so that we can learn, prosper, help the environment and non-able bodied and elderly. All the causes we care about are helped with security and freedom and the Islamofacist terrorists are against prosperity and freedom.

    I hope you understand now or at least tried to understand. Circular discussions are tiring.

  56. There is no such thing as good or evil. Nobody’s “evil” and if we all tried to put ourselves in each others shoes we’d realize this. People choose what they choose with specific reasons in my mind and are not always fully aware of it. I wish I could just say that there are some things that are not explainable cuz that would make things more beautiful, but there’s truly a reason behind everything. Fighting evil is so absurd like cops. They kill people who kill people, thus they both kill. The cop is supposed to be the good guy fighting crime but how could you set an example without embodying the law. I got that from ghandhi. Fighting is so absurd. It’s as if c equals a and b, but a cannot exist with b, and b cannot exist with a.

  57. Considering the fundamentals of Christian dogma, that fact that an alleged Christian can make an inane statement like “there is no good or evil” says a lot about how “Christian” Sarah actually is. :-?

  58. Baklava states:
    Pacifism (the belief in being passive at all times – it has to be all times because otherwise it’s not a belief – it’s just a desire to try to be passive) is dangerous because it lends towards evil people ruling and good people being subjugated. It is not God’s will. Pacifism is by far worse than vegetarianism because at least vegetarians are affecting their own health and lifespan. Pacifists are hurting others and leading others towards a path of lack of freedom and subjugation. Evil people do NOT care about the environment or prosperity. Evil lends towards poverty and death.

    Pacifism only works if there are others who will take up the task of protecting them, otherwise pacifism is just submitting to getting yourself killed.

    It is unbelieveable that with all the points, and PROOF that is given that someone can be this dense.

    As Bak stated, this is not Utopia, we do not live in a time of complete peace and not everyone will like you. The terrorists are not the police, they enforce the law, and most time (I admit there are bad cops and bad judgements) use force of a weapon only when their lives are in danger.

    – The police are not terrorists.

    – The average citizen is not a terrorists when they pick up a gun and protect themselves.

    So I assume you consider Clinton a terrorist too? And every Democrat that voted for the war?

    I must be nice to live in this fantasy you have sarah, but I hope you realize that there are just times when peope don’t give one rat’s ass what you care or feel, they hate you for your skin color, or your smell, or the way you look, or what you have said, or how you say it, or what you watch, or what you read, or how you dress or because their holy book tells them to hate you.

    There the world can now be at peace, and utopia can be achieved, we have figured out why the terrorists hate us, you, and EVERYONE WHO IS NOT MUSLIM.

    Now that we know, how do you propose we change to appeae the terrorists? Submit and convert to Islam under the threat of loosing your head? Dhimmitude? Stop having freedom of speech? Have all our women covered in Burkas head to toe? Honor killings? Mutilate our women and female children’s genitalia? Institute Sharia law?

    That is what the terrorists want. You now know what drives them, so now YOU can make the change in your (Heaven forbid we expect TOLERANCE from a terrorists) way of life and do all the above.

    What? You want your freedom of speech? Freedom to say and dress the way you like? To watch what you like? Ect?

    Guess what, so do I. So does Bakalava, Lorica, GWR and ST…and the majority of the US. We value our freedoms, and will fight to protect them. Our founding fathers did that so you have your right to be the pacifist that you are.

    A pacifist has that right only because great men and women pick up weapons and protect that right. They fight so you don’t have to.

    And like a typical loony democrat, you feel we should ‘feel’ and ‘understand’ what drives the hatred of everyone who is not Muslim. You consider the troops terrorists and the terrorists as “misunderstood”. Your thinking is ass-backwards.

    Granted I wish we could just ‘walk a mile’ in their shoes or figure out and fix the WHYS that cause their reactions. But if we could do that, there would be no criminals, our prisons would be empty, there would be no crime – but we don’t have the ability to know all that, we are not God.

    If we could only understand how misunderstood Jeffery Dahmer is when he eats people. Or why Charles Manson is the way he is, ect.

    If we understand THEN WE CAN CHANGE HOW WE ACT, DRESS, ect to appease the person who wants to kill us. It is up to US to change, not them.

    In your efforts to be so tolerant, you allow INTOLERANCE and RACIAL HATRED to spread because in your way of thinking, it is up to us to change and not the person who is intolerant.

    By the way, I now know why Brain is the way he is, he wants to take over the world – so now that I know, I can just let him. Pinky and the Brain….

    Last was a joke, but seemed fitting.

  59. There is no such thing as good or evil. Nobody’s “evil” and if we all tried to put ourselves in each others shoes we’d realize this.

    What a relief! The Holocaust, the Rwandan genocide, Hitler, abortion, the Darfur genocide, the Soviet Gulag, Islamofascists, Stalin, the KKK, Saddam – in a metaphysical sense all these and others unfairy labeled as “evil” are somehow on a similar moral level with nurses, doctors, teachers, firefighters, police, Martin Luther King, Mother Teresa, relief workers and others “good” people and organizations.

    With this knowledge I can sleep soundly tonight.

  60. You win Sarah. I just cannot continue this discussion. With all we do know about history, your explaination of there is “no good or evil”, I am sorry is quite simply silly, and immature. No one here wants to hurt you Sarah, but, there will come a time that evil is going to camp outside your doorstep.

    Ask Ted Bundy if there was no evil. In his only interview after he was caught, he said that he was evil, and evil possessed him to kill the 26 college co-eds. You try to understand the mind of Ted Bundy Sarah. I don’t need to be inside his mind. Thankfully in this interview, he said it was best for him to meet his maker, and the state did just that.

    You are so very wrong Sarah. Sadly, I fear that you are going to be ill prepared for the day that evil finds you. I pray that you have something to fall upon when that day comes. – Lorica

  61. Wow, I never realized Hitler wasn’t evil until I just put myself in his shoes. The Final Solution was just a long-sought after answer to a difficult math problem, and completely unrelated to the systematic killing of “undesirables.” Not evil. Gotcha.

  62. So here’s a scenario that Sarah can jump on:

    1. The U.S. decides that Sarah is correct because after all, she is educated and open-minded unlike the rest of us, and completely shuts down the military. After all, there is no good and no evil, by using force we’re just perpetuating and endless cycle of violence.
    2. Weapons are completely banned. I’m assuming Sarah is all for this as they can only injure or kill. We only need to understand why crime takes place in order to prevent it.
    3. We announce to the world that we will no longer use military force to attack or defend ourselves. After all, in Sarah’s world, this doesn’t solve anything. There is no good or evil. If someone attacks us it’s because they had a reason to and we must understand it.

    After all this takes place Iran, not worrying about U.S. intervention, launches an attack on Israel. Israel fights valiantly, but terrorist attacks combined with a nuclear attack completely eliminate the state of Israel. It wasn’t an evil action, though, as Iran “had their reasons.” College courses spring up everywhere to “understand” why Iran had to kill off Israel.

    North Korea decides it’s time to move against South Korea. Artillery opens up all across the DMZ. Seoul is hit hard. Hundreds of thousands die. South Korea pleads for U.S. intervention but our response is, “I’m sorry, they do have a reason for what they’re doing. They don’t like your form of government. Don’t fight back, though, as that will only continue the cycle of killing.” South Korea, without any American assistance, falls under the boot of the North. While trying to “understand” why they had been attacked, millions more starve thanks to North Korean totalitarianism.

    Without warning, terrorists strike multiple cities in the U.S. Many Americans want to fight back, but, they have no weapons, no army, nothing. After all, fighting back would only continue the endless cycle of violence. Sarah and her friends join in a peaceful chant, embracing the cause of Islamofascism. They aren’t evil, you see, they just are misunderstood. The U.S. surrenders, becoming an Islamic state. The population is forced to either pay a tax to live, convert, or be killed. Meanwhile, all the open-minded universities suddenly have a severe course change. All of the classes that once existed to help make Sarah open-minded and educated are gone. Those college courses that once tried to “understand” Iran’s attack on Israel are gone.

    What a great world, huh?

  63. Objects appear different from where one stands. I would rather be cruxified than to be the one doing the crucifying. When what I consider “evil” comes a knocking on my door, he can come do what he wants. He can torture me, take my land, my record collection and all else I hold dear to my heart, but I know that he can never hurt my soul. Only I can hurt my soul. A sure fire way to do that is to use violence and force to make him conform to my beliefs, for that is no better than what he is doing. He can even make me wear a burka and threaten to kill me if I continue to state my opinions, but I will never stoop to his level and start terrorizing him for him to stop terrorizing me, for it’ll only make it worse. We’ll keep chasing our tails. I’ll fight him, he’ll fight me and before I know it my life will be over. And of course I’m ill-prepared for “evil”, I can’t fight and nor do I want to. I don’t own any guns. I could never hurt someone, which is why I don’t expect anyone to fight for me. Sanity said, “Pacifism only works if there are others who will take up the task of protecting them, otherwise pacifism is just submitting to getting yourself killed.” If I felt like protecting myself, I would enlist myself right this instant instead of sending others to do it for me. I don’t expect anyone to fight for my protection. I would gladly submit myself to die. This life isn’t so precious that I would risk my heart and soul protecting my skin and bones. I had a personal lose on 9/11, but I am not going to carry around this intense need for vengeance. There is nothing to avenge. I’ll be killing someone who in turn will have the desire to kill someone else in vengeance and so on. I’ll be creating a cycle that might never be broken but needs to be broken. If 9/11 taught me anything, it was forgiveness. Like I said a couple sentence ago, fighting for and protecting my life, my bones, really isn’t as improtant as protecting my soul.

  64. How come we can have nukes but other countries can’t? Israel has nukes, too. 200 of them. More than England. We aren’t even sure Iran has got them. They probably do, but I’m assuming since it takes a long time to create nuke fission, they probably don’t have more than 200. I’m sure if Iran attacks Israel, they’ll just throwdown a bomb, too, unless Iran completely kills them off first. There are Jews in Iran though so I don’t completely understand why they aren’t dealing with their own jews first, and Iranians don’t really like Arabs and most of them hated Saddam, so they are purty glad we killed him off. Then again we still haven’t gotten rid of our own terrorists, so of course Iran would do what America is doing, launch an attack against another country, when they’ve got those same people they are trying to demolish back in their own country. I’m not suggesting a plan for them. I don’t want them killing anyone in ther own country or Israel just as much as i don’t want us killing people. I’m just saying that what they are doing is just as crazy as what we are doing. A complete Catch-22. But seriously, how come we get to throw bombs in Japan and test them under our oceans, but other countries our forbidden? Well, shouldn’t they be worried we’d hurt them, just as we’re afraid they’d hurt us? And there are so many more countries with muslim terrorists than North Korea, Syria, and Iran. Why don’t we bomb them too. We bombed Somalia. We’re not even sure we hit the right targets, we just assume we got all those evil men. We definitely killed off all the good innocent people along with those evil men. Why don’t we just drop a gigantic nuke and kill off all the evil men in the world? Ooops that would be like the whole world. Me included of course, and all you guys, but of course then we wouldn’t have to worry about terrorists. They would be dead. Yay! Mission accomplished! I’m writing my senators right this instant! Why didn’t we just think of the big nuke in the first place?! I’ll be awarded so many medals for my brilliant military plan. And I’ll die in the process so I’ll definitely get a purple heart or something! Wo0t! My dreams are slowly coming true! Thank you for helping me realize this! I owe you all!

    Sarah, I think it’s time for you to take a little break from the blog. –ST

  65. Sarah wrote with great wisdom, “Objects appear different from where one stands.

    Yes – If I was an Islamofacist, if I was standing over a dead body with a box cutter in one hand while my cohort was flying me and 100 others into the World Trade Center because I thought America was the great Satan because of Hollywood, homosexuals and the freedom we have where you Sarah have the right to speak out and wear provocative clothing. If you wanted to fix it you needed (along with others here in America) to submit to Islam, where a Burka and put Hollywood out of business. Are you ready? Let’s do it. Just tell me one thing. When we are in the house together can you take the Burka off. I won’t mind !!

    Sarah doesn’t believe in protection by saying, “I would rather be cruxified than to be the one doing the crucifying.

    No. Not crucifying. It’s taking action to protect ourselves from people intent on killing millions (in their own words). The man in the bell tower shooting person after person wasn’t crucified. He was shot after he had picked off too many people. He had no justification. No amount of being in his shoes would’ve convinced anyone in their right mind that he was justified.

    You don’t negotiate with evil terrorists. You don’t understand them. Why Sarah? Because if you understand evil people it breeds more evil people. If rioters and rapists and murderers are given a voice and given what they really wanted all along (after we understood them), more people would see it as an option to get their grievances heard. Let’s say Osama put a 500 billion hole in our economy, killed 3,000 people, hurt the people who survived due to the environment being poisoned, left kids who will never see their mom or dad and we said to Osama, “Please tell us your grievances. We want to understand”. First Sarah, what do you think Osama would say? He has already talked. He has talked about Hollywood and homosexuals and the freedoms which allow us to choose other religions besides Islam. He has talked about wiping Israel off the face of the map. He has talked about us leaving Saudi Arabia. Let’s just say we said to Osama. OK. OK. We hear you and we understand. WE give you ALL that you want.

    OTHER crackpots and EVIL people in the world will see that as the avenue to get what they want. You can NOT negotiate with evil terrorists. You do not give them a voice. They are not to be understood. When evil rears it’s head conversation is OVER. The line has been crossed. To live in a world amongst others in peace you yourself need to be peaceful. Evil people do not do that. We do not have utopia Sarah no matter how many drugs you take.

    Sarah wrote blissfully, “When what I consider “evil” comes a knocking on my door, he can come do what he wants. He can torture me, take my land, my record collection and all else I hold dear to my heart, but I know that he can never hurt my soul. Only I can hurt my soul.

    A leader of a country is obligated to not submit the people and have then turn cheeks. He is obligated to protect. You yourself can CHOOSE to turn the other cheek and say these things but it is not holy, good or wise for anyone to take your advice. In order to help more people, the environment and keep people free from subjugation we are allowed to protect ourselves from evil. As for evil not existing. Everything exists. Black, white, dirt, soap, good, evil, poison, medicine, dark, light, sight, lack of sight, perspective, lack of perspective, negativity, optimism, clarity, moral relativism. To say something doesn’t exist just because you don’t want it to exist is to offer up moral relativism and lack of clarity. It hurts others to not protect them. It is evil to not offer protection. Babies under 12 months or even 3 years need people who are wise and have perspective to keep them free from harm. Those who cross the line and do harm need no understanding or voice.

    Sarah wrote, “,We’ll keep chasing our tails.

    You’d chase your tail even more rapidly if you started giving voices to evil people.

    Sarah wrote, “I’ll fight him, he’ll fight me and before I know it my life will be over.

    Remember the guy who shot 30 people on the New York subway. He could’ve shot 60 or more if nobody stood up and fought him. Yes. Before you know it your life would’ve been over with pacifism as the way of life. Evil unfettered leaves more and more carnage.

    Sarah wrote, “I don’t own any guns.” Yes. They outlawed guns in much of Europe before WW2. It was easy for the Germans to overtake the countries they took. More lives were lost and the war was prolonged because pacifists thought that guns should be banned. WW2 could’ve been over a lot quicker with only 1 million lives lost as opposed to the 50 million if people could’ve stopped the evil sooner. Responsible people who stand up to evil should be applauded and not attacked by the Sarah’s of the world. You should apologize and thank a vet. You should apologize and thank the Lord you live in a great nation where we are free, prosperous and able to keep ourselves from being hurt by evil people who want to hurt us everywhere. Remember to put down the drugs and learn clarity right !!

    Sarah without clarity wrote, “If I felt like protecting myself, I would enlist myself right this instant instead of sending others to do it for me.

    There have been others doing it all your life sweetie. Since you were born you were protected by parents, or other authoritative figures. You live in a nation that has a strong national security. There are plenty other places with almost anarchy where you could very well be subjugated to working in cocaine fields in Columbia ruled by evil drug lords. The fact that you have such lack of clarity is ok because you are protected from your stupidity in this country. You should stand up and thank everyone for contributing to your protection instead of acting like you aren’t protected and saying you would enlist.

    sarah wrote, “I don’t expect anyone to fight for my protection.

    But they are. It isn’t anarchy because we have rule of law and you have people being paid to protect and serve this very instant. I just heard a siren just now. They are doing their job. Do you know what happens when police are non-existent? Looting, rapes, murders skyrocket. Burglaries, robberies, etc.

    Sarah without convincing anyone here wrote, “If 9/11 taught me anything, it was forgiveness.

    You go on forgiving. You have that freedom because of your protection. But if as a nation we forgave and forgot and even went further and asked Osama what he wanted, it would be THE avenue for all other evil dictators and crackpots to get what they want. And as they got more and more and became stronger and stronger with more people under them and more natural resources and more wealth the good would perish and Sarah might realize the philosophy did nothing but let evil triumph. Free will to serve the lord would be replaced with death and carnage if you didn’t submit to Islam and live in poverty.

    Sleep well tonight in your nice bed with fairly good rule of law being kept all around you!! A lot of people can’t even do that in other countries that don’t have domestic and national security. Their daughters are being raped in front of them. THeir boys are being castrated and killed. The fathers who try to be brave and save anyone are being shot. Land is being pillaged and resources are being taken. There is no rule of law and you have the opposite. A nice place to sleep and feel well rested so that you can feel superior tomorrow and write so more muddied water moral relativism statments that don’t offer clarity. As you drift off to a nice sleep – don’t let the relative peace and tranquility provided for you make you think about how grateful you really should be. You might feel so good that you’d walk up to an armed police officer and thank him/her tomorrow. He’ll smile and say “Your welcome”. And you are – whether you believe one way or the other you are welcome to the protection offered to you no matter how thankful you are!!

  66. BTW Sarah, if you don’t see evil I do as I sit here and watch the Discovery Times channel’s documentary “Hamas”.

    Quite fascinating stuff. The protection that Israel has to work to provide themselves is a huge effort.

  67. Ignorance is amazing.

    How can you have debate or have a conversation with someone who cares nothing for their life?

    Stupid thing is, she has been protected whether she wants to or not, by our laws, by her parents, by her government, by the men and women in uniform, whether that uniform be police, firemen or soldier.

    Like talking to a brick wall and has about as much sense.

    Every time I read what she say, I shake my head and can’t help thinking she is somehow mentally disturbed in some way.

    I mean I understand how liberals think at times, and they can be a bit off the wall, sometimes a bit mental, but NEVER have I heard a liberal sound like this.

    If the democrat party was filled with such as her, I would be very scared, seriously.

  68. How can you have debate or have a conversation with someone who cares nothing for their life?

    Good question. It’s impossible. This is someone who sees no difference between the United States and North Korea or Iran and places zero value in her life.

  69. Sarah runs up the white flag: When what I consider “evil” comes a knocking on my door, he can come do what he wants. He can torture me, take my land, my record collection and all else I hold dear to my heart

    Well, that’s all peachy for you. Do you mind if the rest of us decide that our civilization actually is worth preserving? Think about some of the scenarios that can occur if we choose your way – the one Ryan outlined, for starters. Do you honestly think that if the West simply disarmed and greeted the islamofascists with flowers and smiles, that your freedoms would last for more than a few minutes? Throught your posts here, you profess to be worried about us wanting to put you liberals in some sort of concentration camp, yet now you say you’d gladly let the Islamists do it.

    So you don’t believe in such as thing as evil? First, thanks for dropping the Christian mask and revealing yourself as a simple anarchistic moral relativist. That explains a lot. Second, here’s a clue about evil people: I’d say anyone whose first reaction to anything that offends them is to start decapitations and homicide bombings qualifies. If you can’t get that small distinction through your head, then there’s really no point trying to discuss this with you any more. For someone who claims to be educated, you comprehend the realities of life in today’s world less than most small children.

    Fortunately, you remain free to have these thoughts, enjoy your records (banned by islamists, by the way), and even work to subvert the very institutions that guarantee your rights. That’s one awe-inspring quality of our system. It considers even those who would sabotage it from within – people like you – to be worth saving and defending. How sad that you’re too brainwashed to understand that.

  70. there are just times when peope don’t give one rat’s ass what you care or feel,

    Hey sanity, watch the personal physique references, OK? Thanks! :d

  71. The scary thing is Sarah is out there. She can have children and prosletize others into her loony, lemming way of thinking.

    Now, who still believes Liberalism is not a mental dieease?

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